tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post7571539815708600012..comments2024-03-29T05:36:15.909-07:00Comments on <em>Archimago's Musings</em>: MEASUREMENTS: Topping D10s - an inexpensive high performance basic USB DAC with S/PDIF outs. And on "perceptibly perfect" DACs.Archimagohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-78393341347847573652022-04-17T12:00:28.145-07:002022-04-17T12:00:28.145-07:00"I believe humans would not be able to differ..."I believe humans would not be able to differentiate between an accurate $100 DAC like this little Topping D10s and an accurate $5000+ DAC (take your pick)."<br /><br />Quite so, and a bullet to be bitten if the maker will bite with you. Having read your measurements of the reviewed Cayin NOS portable USB DAC (? the RU6, I think) and the mediocre impression that it created, how about BRIAN ENO AND JOY DIVISION ULTRA-RARITIES TRADEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02803139129031218017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-19907517188220859452021-09-17T15:38:12.494-07:002021-09-17T15:38:12.494-07:00Great write-up, especially your end musings. I ha...Great write-up, especially your end musings. I have taken your philosophy to heart and basically keep my DAC (Modius) / amplifier (Hypex nc-400) as clean as possible, but run it through a Schiit Freya+ so I can choose to dial in some tube distortion, or not. My analog turntable side is more preference based since it is really hard to measure and grade turntable/cartridge/phono-pre performance.<BobPMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00018053870957009109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-54127902917511504442021-07-28T20:58:50.163-07:002021-07-28T20:58:50.163-07:00Hey there Duck,
Yeah, I've had a handful of th...Hey there <em>Duck</em>,<br />Yeah, I've had a handful of those kinds of concerts in my life as well back in the college years mainly. Loud, bassy, hearing-loss inducing affairs.<br /><br />I think that other than classical (or other pure acoustic) concerts/performances where amplification and sound modification can be seen as verboten, I certainly would not correlate a "natural" orArchimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-9268937868739113932021-07-28T08:19:57.199-07:002021-07-28T08:19:57.199-07:00It's very interesting to see you bringing up t...It's very interesting to see you bringing up the subject of preferences, and how different they can be, even though most of us have heard live music on many occasions, and thus should know how "music should sound IRL". Of course this is also genre-dependant, as metal- or hard rock fans will most likely be more bass hungry than jazz- or folk fans are. Still, I find it a bit strange.<Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-58707262954344783672021-07-27T19:37:02.373-07:002021-07-27T19:37:02.373-07:00Greetings Bennet,
Nice work! Thanks for the intere...Greetings <em>Bennet</em>,<br />Nice work! Thanks for the interesting links.<br /><br />Yes, there are definite "games" that can be played with these filter settings and indeed I'm not surprised that there can be a "feedback loop" between measurement-based reviews and the manufacturers aiming to satisfy happy reviewers ;-). <br /><br />Agree that the filter issue is Archimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-13698848878937745722021-07-27T04:35:02.512-07:002021-07-27T04:35:02.512-07:00Long time no see Archimago,
D10s uses the ESS &qu...Long time no see Archimago,<br /><br />D10s uses the ESS "Apodizing" filter. This choice is probably affected by Amir's preference in many of his previous reviews. I've pointed out there are prices to pay for such a filter several times like these:<br />https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/digital-filter-game.23795/<br />https://www.audiosciencereview.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-66018603827382192532021-07-25T09:52:13.124-07:002021-07-25T09:52:13.124-07:00No surprise Arthur.
Of course in the big picture,...No surprise <em>Arthur</em>.<br /><br />Of course in the big picture, the Denafrips looks well made and it's not some kind of "Snake Oil". I suspect on the used market they will maintain their value so you'll have gained the experience listening to it and it won't be a problem moving on if you wanted. (Then you'll get the budget back for other stuff man ;-).<br /><br />IArchimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-11022990400299705972021-07-25T06:28:47.861-07:002021-07-25T06:28:47.861-07:00Hi AudioSceptic, yes, I'm aware of ASR. I visi...Hi AudioSceptic, yes, I'm aware of ASR. I visit it often actually. The review of the E30 you linked above is the primary reason I have 2 of them in my house. But I'm afraid Archimago nails it again. I got swayed by reviews from Darko (I know, I'm sorry), but also TwitteringMachines and British Audiophile.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05936752161864362315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-48483563709604660312021-07-24T12:52:24.403-07:002021-07-24T12:52:24.403-07:00Hey AudioSceptic,
"As it happens, the Denafr...Hey <em>AudioSceptic</em>,<br /><br /><em>"As it happens, the Denafrips is not bad at all, but why did you think it would be better than the Topping?"</em><br /><br />It is good to see that these R2R DACs are getting good enough objectively to take on typical chip DACs especially with improving low-level linearity and noise level. Lots of work and expense of course...<br /><br />Not to Archimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-55429111988875391012021-07-24T04:40:21.412-07:002021-07-24T04:40:21.412-07:00Here's the E30 review https://www.audioscience...Here's the E30 review https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e30-dac-review.12119/AudioSceptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17171552819065521350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-1064573512227358552021-07-24T04:22:37.225-07:002021-07-24T04:22:37.225-07:00Arthur, Archimago is a great source of honest, obj...Arthur, Archimago is a great source of honest, objective reviews but there is also Audio Science Review. Amir manages to test a huge number of audio devices of all types. He has shown that, with few exceptions, the correlation between price and performance is poor, and the correlation between performance and most subjective reviews is even worse. As it happens, the Denafrips is not bad at all, AudioSceptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17171552819065521350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-46291634588597492652021-07-23T22:32:26.294-07:002021-07-23T22:32:26.294-07:00Greetings Arthur,
Hey thanks for the testimony... ...Greetings <em>Arthur</em>,<br />Hey thanks for the testimony... Not often does one see that viewpoint/experience expressed in the audiophile news sources. Imagine the horror and pandemonium such a <em>dangerous</em> belief would cause if it were printed in the pages of the usual review mags or spoken of in YouTube reviews as if it's true ;-).<br /><br />At the very least there might be issuesArchimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-76272491857207993092021-07-23T07:07:48.527-07:002021-07-23T07:07:48.527-07:00Great review as always! This hits me to my core as...Great review as always! This hits me to my core as I recently purchased a Denafrips Ares II to replace my Topping E30. And I have to admit that I couldn't hear the difference between the two. Or at the very least, I have to admit that the difference is not worth $550. At most, I tell myself that I like the more analog, colored sound coming out of the Ares. The truth is I really doubt that'Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05936752161864362315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-73860501266462194832021-07-22T21:58:14.286-07:002021-07-22T21:58:14.286-07:00Agree Vaal,
I think the key is as you said very we...Agree <em>Vaal</em>,<br />I think the key is as you said very well:<br /><strong>"But I prefer to go about this advisedly. I don't want to misunderstand the world. Knowledge is power for getting what you want."</strong><br /><br />In many ways, this has been the "mission" here on the blog.<br /><br />After years and years of reading mainstream bulls*it through my Archimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-64809753531640506582021-07-22T21:22:03.913-07:002021-07-22T21:22:03.913-07:00Thanks Don,
Will specifically have a look at the M...Thanks <em>Don</em>,<br />Will specifically have a look at the Mojo a little down the road ;-).<br />Archimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-68662345161355956002021-07-22T21:21:33.355-07:002021-07-22T21:21:33.355-07:00Yeah Don,
They want to make something special out ...Yeah <em>Don</em>,<br />They want to make something special out of a correlation with the number of taps!<br /><br />Not specifically talking about Chord coming up, but it does have to do with those filter taps though ;-).<br />Archimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-85341386277177334682021-07-22T14:48:25.837-07:002021-07-22T14:48:25.837-07:00In mild defence of the Chord Mojo, I will say that...In mild defence of the Chord Mojo, I will say that the battery can be disconnected, even removed, and the unit powered by USB. But it does sometimes stay warm even when turned off.Don Braidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09983005276822850521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-46809945293467683442021-07-21T22:43:31.990-07:002021-07-21T22:43:31.990-07:00(Re-submitted due to typos):
Yes I agree about au...(Re-submitted due to typos):<br /><br />Yes I agree about audio "objectivism." And by that I mean essentially using methods generally known to arrive at reliable knowledge - the stuff of engineering and science (measurements, correlated to audibility and subjective effects, listening tests controlling for bias when indicated, etc)<br /><br />The purpose one has for those tools may vary.Vaalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14896147903257500224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-6678113260816782262021-07-21T14:20:32.886-07:002021-07-21T14:20:32.886-07:00I look forward to a piece on tap length, Archimago...I look forward to a piece on tap length, Archimago. Those Chord taps seem to increase in price right along with volume.Don Braidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09983005276822850521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-11770565092850706982021-07-21T13:29:13.839-07:002021-07-21T13:29:13.839-07:00Hey AudioSceptic,
Good question about the filter i...Hey AudioSceptic,<br />Good question about the filter itself. I don't know if it's one of the standard ESS one or if Topping decided to roll their own.<br /><br />I have ordered the D10b just now so hopefully in comes in the next couple weeks. Will be interesting to compare whether the filter looks like this one. Based on the ASR measurement, it looks like a slow-roll filter with -10dB atArchimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-53889670446919689972021-07-21T12:44:10.027-07:002021-07-21T12:44:10.027-07:00Talking about conventional DACs, is the steep filt...Talking about conventional DACs, is the steep filter in the D10s one of the ones provided by ESS or a custom Topping one? I have the same DAC chip in a Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital and that has 7 ESS filters plus a custom John Westlake one (IIRC). AudioSceptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17171552819065521350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-87741112694745656682021-07-21T12:28:00.318-07:002021-07-21T12:28:00.318-07:00That would be great. I confess to not understandin...That would be great. I confess to not understanding why Rob Watts thinks it's so crucial when so many others don't find much wrong with "conventional" DACs. AudioSceptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17171552819065521350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-86044540510816783232021-07-21T11:48:18.708-07:002021-07-21T11:48:18.708-07:00Interesting. Yeah... I'm always weary about ba...Interesting. Yeah... I'm always weary about batteries and deterioration over time, preferring to avoid if not absolutely needed.<br /><br />Speaking about long tap length filters and such. Let's tackle that this weekend. ;-)<br />Archimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-65907229841674998602021-07-21T11:46:19.741-07:002021-07-21T11:46:19.741-07:00Hey there Don,
IMO the tap length issue is interes...Hey there <em>Don</em>,<br />IMO the tap length issue is interesting from a sales/advertising perspective and the WTA filter is Chord's way of justifying their place in the market. What you'll see in the measurements is a very steep linear phase "brick wall" filter.<br /><br />I suspect in a volume-controlled blind test between a Mojo (a friend has one and I might borrow that atArchimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4781727111866727703.post-14616547504840980402021-07-21T11:35:00.078-07:002021-07-21T11:35:00.078-07:00Brilliant stuff!
Nice, I'll see about grabbin...Brilliant stuff!<br /><br />Nice, I'll see about grabbing one of these as this would make an amazing signal source for amplifier testing!<br /><br />Agree, I don't think my 49 year old ears will hear the difference in sound... ;-)Archimagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08642574001287787545noreply@blogger.com