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| Hublot Big Bang Unico, ~US$20k+ depending on model. |
Hey everyone, I just got back from the wonderful trip to Central Europe and figured I'd extend some thoughts expressed in the previous article: The Luxury of Sound and Time: Audiophile products, the Rolex and Timex Analogy.
That article went online October 12th and I was
surprised to see Stereophile posted their article “In Defense of Sticker Shock” on October 17th written by Rogier van Bakel
featuring a fancy looking, but inexpensive quartz wristwatch as the title image; what synchronicity! I assume his
article must have been published in print/e-magazine earlier than when it showed
up online.
I see the article pretty much opens with this statement:
Say “$10,000 DAC” and watch audio-forum commenters descend like pigeons on a dropped hot dog, flapping and furious.
Yeah, that's probably a fair observation! However, I think the first question we must ask ourselves is: “What’s
wrong with that?”
You see, we have to consider context. Unless one is on a high-end manufacturer-specific forum where everyone owns one of these $10k DACs and presumably feels that the device is of good value, these days on most free and open audiophile forums, the hobbyist ethos I believe remains aligned with the desire for function first (sonic fidelity, transparency, "functionalist" philosophy) and form second (appearances, brand names, and other non-utilitarian "aesthete" factors). We can see this tendency among audiophiles in this thread on Steve Hoffman Forums asking about preference for “sound or esthetics”.
As I discussed last time, in the world of luxury goods, like
that fancy Hublot wristwatch above, it’s the opposite priority. Clearly dollars are
spent not on the best accuracy (the Hublot Unico mechanical watches are typically accurate within +/-3-4 seconds/day), but on fancy materials, craftsmanship, brand image, design, and other subjective hedonic factors promoting pride of ownership.
Given my comments previously, I do believe that luxury goods have their place, and manufacturers pursuing that market can certainly find financial success. That is not an issue. However, I wish audiophile magazines like Stereophile can simply be open about their bias as advertising agents for that luxury market. As demonstrated in his article, Mr. van Bakel attempts to uphold a kind of “moral order” that keeps exotic (Ultra) High-End products on top which I believe most audiophiles can already transparently see as questionable.
In his defense of the expensive “sticker shock” products, he continues
to perpetuate a core “binding statement” that the hi-end segment wants readers to believe:
More money
buys you better sound quality.
A collapse of that binding statement of faith correlating
price with sound quality should automatically put doubt into the value of much
of the (ultra) high-end products among functionalist audiophiles. This would also
render whole classes of "components" like very expensive cables and tweaks (cable risers, tiny "acoustic treatments", fuses, various "noise" filters, unnecessarily clocks, expensive power supplies) with no objective benefits into snake oil or quackery territory if promoted as significantly improving sound.
I trust that none of what I'm saying here is a surprise. At some level, it's just common sense for many of us with experience over the years. I see that Mr. van Bakel tries his
hand at doctrinal apologetics on behalf of the high-end companies, rationalizing that stratospheric high prices are due to: inflation, the complexity of running a business,
HR, supply-chain issues, tariffs, dealer and distributor
overheads, and of course low volumes. So what? Every manufacturer needs to make sure their products have value and adequate consumer demand. If a company truly can “innovate” and successfully market their
items, they'll stand a fighting chance, otherwise, such is the free-market system
regardless of what price tag they demand because they stayed up all night haunted by whether their cymbal fade
subjectively sounded right!
How silly to compare spending $50-60k on a car which is not a luxury item but often a necessity for work and family life versus an entertainment stereo system at comparable prices! Also consider the amount of materials, technologies and components in a vehicle compared to DACs, speakers, and amps. How even more cringeworthy to glorify the idea that a stereo “can take you everywhere else” and the car only takes us from point A to B! Does he not think a hi-res capable $500 DAC can stir our memories and elevate emotions when playing music from that concert hall in Tokyo just as well as some unspecified $10k DAC? For me, a song played on an AM car radio can transport me to times and places in life also - such is the power of art, not merely the things we own!*
* Cue the Alan Parsons' quote that "Audiophiles don't use their equipment to listen to your music. Audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment." IMO there is a level of maturity we've achieved when we're able to clearly see/hear, and love the art, rather than merely fetishizing the hardware.
Let’s get real, man. If one seriously wants to be immersed in that Tokyo venue, get into multichan… Oh wait… Stereophile almost exclusively is stuck with 2-channel stuff, never mind. IMO they're missing out on a superior experience. 🙁
I would highly recommend that Rogier van Bakel, Stereophile magazine, and the High-End Industry embrace that “Veblen Goods” concept. Just be honest with us and don't fight the obvious truth in such a silly, pretentious, way. Clearly, many of these products are not meant for audiophile hobbyists looking for high-fidelity sound.
There's of course nothing wrong with audiophiles having fun reading about very expensive products, checking out beautiful pictures, or enjoying listening to these high-end pieces at audio shows and dealerships. However, from an industry money-making point of view, this luxury segment is unlikely to achieve growth just because a few geeks like to read about this stuff in magazines, blogs, watch videos, or show up to superficially listen to the components in an unfamiliar sound room with no intent of purchasing. Rather, it's obvious that these companies are aspiring to achieve credibility in the playgrounds of those seeking luxury – among premium brands like Louis Vuitton, Hermès, Tiffany & Co., Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, Rolex, Hugo Boss, Dolce & Gabbana, and whatever companies make big yachts. 😉
I think manufacturers of these kinds of products should have a frank discussion with Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, Hi-Fi+, Hi-Fi News & Record Review, and others they sponsor with advertising about how their goods are being portrayed, promoted, what image they desire to project, and represented by whom. As discussed to some extent in the previous post's comments, maybe it's time to start considering a new advertising game plan that actually caters to the kind of consumers they're wooing because this kind of Stereophile article, the negative reactions and sentiments on typical forums by audiophiles exasperated by ballooning MSRP are not doing them any good. I suspect this is still the main reason why Stereophile scrubbed their website of all public comments earlier this year. Opacity rather than open dialogue and furthering understanding will not grow the hobby.
Older generation, homely-looking gentlemen with oversized, expensive hardware in small basements and cluttered rooms might not be the best image to present to the buyers that the High-End companies are aiming for. Clearly, many of these products are meant for individuals in very high socioeconomic tiers, who also have mansions, who look like they have the money to actually own these things at MSRP; "cool" people who also own other products from the brands listed above.
If this High-End “Sticker Shock” Industry is what a magazine like Stereophile wants to primarily serve, protect, to help create positive sentiment and demand for $10,000+ DACs, $20,000+ amplifiers, $50,000+ speakers, $1,000+ interconnects, there’s certainly nothing wrong with that decision. But is it working out for them? And are they serving a diverse enough range of audiophiles including the younger generations who might not want to spend more than $500 on a DAC but are the future of this hobby?
If they do desire to grow the audio hobby, I wonder if explicitly identifying product "tiers" could be helpful. For example, the A Blog To Watch site sets a threshold between wristwatches <$500 and those priced above in their reviews. In the same way, maybe audio magazines can categorize products as "High-Fidelity" or "High-End" based on the intended market segment. Thorough measurements of High-Fidelity products would be warranted, and I think exempting the High-End items from similar objective analysis, perhaps as per manufacturer request, would also be fine.
While it would be interesting to know the measurement results for something like a $175k Wadax Atlantis Reference DAC or a $1M DarTZeel phono cartridge, it actually doesn't matter because no rational hi-fi audiophile would buy such things based primarily on accuracy and there's no need to believe that they measure particularly well; just as mechanical Rolex accuracy should not be assumed to rival the quartz Timex (always good to see COSC accuracy certification however). Furthermore, I'm sure some companies would prefer the absence of numbers and graphs to perpetuate the mystique surrounding their equipment's performance. I believe it's fine for objectivists to be gracious towards fellow audiophile pilgrims who prefer only subjective reviews as recognition that they desire euphonic rather than accurate sound from such luxury products. Their money, their toys, and I suppose it's okay that some might need a subjective reviewer to provide external validation for their purchase.
Explicitly categorizing the products also will allow the magazine to promote different reviewers for each tier with different styles of creative writing, different priorities, perhaps emphasizing nice pictures of certain products, catered to that "class". By doing this, a magazine like Stereophile might even want to use a tag line like "Your one source for High-Fidelity and High-End audio." catering to both subjective and/or objective evaluations depending on the product, comfortably reviewing down-to-earth high volume hi-fi brands for the masses like Schiit, Topping, SMSL, and ELAC right next to the exotic luxury of Wilson, Magico, Burmester, D'Agostino, and mbl. This will allow readers the freedom to choose their form of engagement with the hobby. Some fly economy and others pay for premium class seats, both can get us to the same fun vacation destination.
So then, let’s stop playing games about whether a $10,000 DAC’s “sound quality” likely has anything special to offer hi-fi audiophiles. Dispense with that incorrect "More Expensive = Better Sound" principle beyond reasonable prices that rapidly hit diminished returns. No need to desperately defend audio products that are primarily sold as status symbols. No need to feel indignant when audiophiles recognize such products as luxury items. If craftsman-made, rare, luxury is what an audiophile wants, go for it, be proud of it, no need to claim idealistic utilitarian performance without evidence as an excuse for high prices!
Finally, Mr. van Bakel, hobbyists seeking value and accuracy should not be seen as merely deserving of the pejorative "cheap seats". I suspect that for many of us, real wealth is built with the wisdom of knowing when we don't need certain luxury material things.
--------------------
With that, let’s end off with some photos from Europe! (All images taken with the Sony Alpha α6700.)
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| Strahov Monastery Library, Prague. Beautiful place with a nice brewery and restaurant on premises - delicious roasted pork knuckle. Those monks sure knew how to make beer! 🤤 I thought the library rooms (Theological and Philosophical Halls) here are together even more impressive than the Old Town Clementinum Baroque Library. |
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| Széchenyi Chain Bridge, the Danube River, and St. Stephen's. Budapest. |
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| Ferris Wheel of Budapest. I had a great time in this area during OktoberFest Budapest with the food and varied traditional music! |
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| Sunset at St. Stephen's Basilica, Budapest. |
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| Scene from a Ruin Pub, old Jewish Quarter, Budapest. Some very cool place to hang out after dark! |
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| Schönbrunn Palace in the Autumn, Vienna. For those who like period dramas about this part of the world, check out The Empress on Netflix. |
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| Wall of Polaroids. Vienna. |
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| Pipe organ in Votive Church, Vienna. |
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| Mozart Monument. Burggarten, Vienna. Lots of Mozart branded stuff in town for tourists (and at tourist traps😱). |
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| Koala at the Schönbrunn Zoo, Vienna. The world's oldest zoo still in operation. They also recently reopened their giant panda exhibit this past spring. |
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| I saw that there are a couple of high-end audiophile stores in Vienna nearby but didn't have a chance to visit. However, Vinyl record store was near the hotel and appears to have a good stock of LPs. New albums go for €30+ each. They had a good collection of CDs and some cassettes as well. |
With the time away overseas done, getting back to the daily responsibilities now. 😊
For progressive rock fans, the new Atmos mix of Genesis' The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (1974, DR12 average for TrueHD-Atmos mix) is available on BluRay and streaming as a 50th anniversary edition release. The 7.1 TrueHD-Atmos lossless version sounds great, as does the lossy streamed 5.1 EAC3-JOC Atmos. The new mix is bold and unafraid to use the height channels; the title track sounds great, also check out "The Waiting Room" for its surround effects. They've extracted more subtleties and detail than the more dynamically compressed 2007 SACD 5.1 multichannel version (DR9-10) I also have. A nicely refreshed multichannel mix done by Bob Mackenzie with Peter Gabriel and Tony Banks!
This is another good example of why the mix/master is much more important than the resolution of the digital delivery format. I would prefer to listen to the new lossy EAC3-JOC Atmos version than the old 2007 hi-res 5.1 DSD64 SACD. As an old multi-track analog recording, it doesn't need to be delivered in pristine 24-bit lossless; that's overkill (discussed years ago, and no need to freak out about lossy Atmos).
Halloween arriving soon, here's Lady Gaga's "The Dead Dance" from MAYHEM (2025) with this bonus track on the streamed version. The album has a pretty dynamic multichannel/Atmos mix as well. Notice Tim Burton added his creepy quirkiness into the video:
Hope you're enjoying the music, dear audiophiles! As usual, stay rational.














ReplyDeleteHej Arch,
Thank you for the article and your coverage of this topic. It seems to me that more of the boutique manufacturers are trying very hard to convince the interested that price really does equate with quality of sound. DartZeel home page reminds the reader that their philosophy has always been to listen first and measure later. “When it comes to music, only humans should be the judge. Theories of physics will never explain how the beauty of music can have such a profound effect on us. Listen first, measure afterwards» is the principle by which all our products are designed.” https://www.dartzeel.com/ Hmmmmm
The blogs and forums dedicated to carful objective analysis and measurements of hi-fi products must be an annoyance to many of these boutique brands. Scrolling through the measurement and ranking charts on the ASR web page one can find some very expensive products rating quite poorly and certainly not recommended.
If you want to satisfy the luxury consumer then make a good sounding product at an affordable price and then for those wanting something extra to be able to demonstrate their wealth just add on some gold and diamonds. This seems to be what Loewe have done with their headphones. The standard model is still quite expensive at over 1000 Euros, but the gold and bejeweled variant will set you back a cool 100 000 Euros! https://hypebeast.com/2025/8/loewe-jacob-and-co-headphones-collaboration-release-info Same, same but different!
Humorous review of the headphone here: https://youtu.be/KflMqooMzF8?t=1376
Great photos!
Cheers
Mike
Greeting Mike,
DeleteThanks for that video on the expensive bejeweled headphones! Gotta admit that all those diamonds and multicolored sapphires look great. They need to have socialites like Kim Kardashian or someone like that act as spokesperson.
Hilarious, and the guy does a fantastic job with a number of the other videos I see reviewing limited editions and such in the luxury market. Would be cool if he did loudspeaker reviews of Wilsons, Magicos, etc. 🤣 But with these physically big items, he better have a nice mansion to show them off in the review!
As for DarTZeel, and their slogan, yeah, only humans can judge music (art), but if they're aiming for high-fidelity, then that's quantifiable science. Hmmm, are these guys still in business?
In the last 2 decades, with the expansion of social media and democratization of media technology to get the message out, it's great to see the expansion of objective testing and knowledge. Of course, the awareness of the science had been out there for ages (I'm reminded of writers like Peter Aczel and his final "What I have learned after six decades" - born in Budapest I see). With this level of transparency, it's hard to hide behind claims of mystical sound quality I think. All of this a good thing I believe which over time, we might be able to understand ourselves better as passionate hobbyists through the complex interplay of science, art, perception, and psychology!
Very interesting article, Arch.
ReplyDeleteThe whole industry seems to be going into a "low cost vs gourmet" kind of market, where the products in the middle seem to be vanishing. What seemed rare and even a little crazy a few years ago (i.e. DACs above 100k) it's now becoming "normal" and it's fairly obvious the hi-fi industry is targeting the ultra-wealthy - as an example Mcintosh/Sonus Faber was owned by a private equity firm before being sold to Bose recently.
I kind of wonder if they aren't a little late to the party as you can read in this recent Forbes article:
"The luxury market is experiencing a significant downturn, with Interbrand reporting a 5% drop in top luxury brand valuations. Experts declare the "luxury supercycle is over," citing weakened Chinese spending, retreating aspirational consumers, and Gen Z's disinterest. While Hermès and some jewelry brands thrive, many major players like LVMH, Kering (Gucci), Nike, Chanel, and Dior valuations are down, indicating a "structural demand problem."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanziger/2025/10/24/declining-consumer-demand-pushes-luxury-brand-valuations-down/
Will this affect the high-end hi-fi market? Hard to think it won't...
In parallel to this focus on the luxury market in recent years, I think with the growth of spaces like Audio Science Review and the explosion of "Chi-Fi" (which only ignorant and biased people hear as pejorative), with plenty of (objectively) excellent and affordable products invading the hi-fi markets, the average audiophile today has simultaneously a lot more access to good (objective) info about products and a lot more good and affordable products to choose from. If the high-end adventure ends up not being a good one, I guess it will be quite hard for brands to return for common audiophiles... The whole "we don't care about blindfold tests or measurements" or "the more expensive, the better it sounds" mantras don't work as well today as they did a few years ago. Right?
Anyway, just a few thoughts.
Cheers,
Thanks for the well-expressed thoughts Miguel,
DeleteRegarding "low cost vs. gourmet" and the gutting of middle-priced products, I think this sadly also reflects societal wealth disparity where the "rich get richer" and middle class under increasing strain with inflation and younger generations wondering if they'll ever own a home or even a stable career.
I try not to talk too much politics on the blog but I see this as all just the inevitable "blow off" in the age of Trump with his corrupt, undisciplined, narcissistic, nepotistic policies focused on mere financial gains at a time when the world is spiraling into impossible to service debt (including here in Canada). Not that we weren't going to get to this point anyways, but Trump is clearly taking things to the "next level" (in some ways kind of reminds me of unbalanced audiophilia talked about with Ken Fritz). If we look back in a few years, I would not be surprised if we're in the last inning of the "Gilded Age" of the 21st Century.
Cracks are already showing with the decline of luxury brands as per the Forbes article. This has affected the Swiss watch market as well. And with tariffs, massive decline in American imports of these products.
I agree, there should be no pejorative bias in appreciating the "Chi-Fi" products. No different than suggesting that there's a "Chi-Phone" market when we're using Made in China iPhones and such. Given the interconnected world, the fantasies of somehow Making America Great with recent policies will be very painful.
Indeed it might be late for the "high-end" luxury audiophile sector to grow at this point but as with every crisis, innovative business leaders can still find opportunities! Who knows, maybe this is the time to burn off the chaff and revitalize audio for another time down the road. An opportunity to clear off the legacy media, dump snake oil salesmen, scam companies without meaningful purpose.
Regardless, the future will be very interesting! I think personally and among friends and family, we need to make sure the financial house is in order to get through the next few years.
But I digress... 😉
Yeah, let's make sure as audiophiles not to be afraid of doing things like blind listening tests, and respect what objective testing tells us about the nature of these things we buy!
Hi Arch: I think the hottest button of all occurs when I go into a brick and mortar Audio Store and the salesperson treats me as a second class citizen because I am more interested in a Kef Stand mount than a pair of Wilson whatevers. Whever i get one of those "Of course it's better, you get what you pay for!" I just walk out the door, and so should everyone else. There are so many snake oil salesmen and rip off artists in the audio marketplace, you most definitely better not only know what you're doing with regard to product, but you better also have an unshakable frame when you deal with these jerks. They are not your friend, and you are not the in world to make them happy. Quite the opposite, and no one walking into one of those store should ever forget that.
ReplyDeleteHey Phoenix,
DeleteThankfully the audio stores here in town seem to be pretty OK when I've visited although it has been a number of years! I need to do a little scouting and see what the attitude is like now. Then again, I hear that Rolex Authorized Dealers can be pretty unfriendly as well.
As a tech guy, I don't know how they survive these days other than needing to sell the higher priced items that are hard to get through online sales and I guess provide service for set-up and optimization. Nonetheless, I do hope customers are treated well and important that they not miseducate with myths and snake oil. If I were in their position, I can imagine how hard it must be given the temptation of presumably higher margins on stuff like expensive cables to talk them up!
Clearly a poor salesperson if they're discriminating because you wanted KEF standmounts! Just bad to not make a sale and at least have the opportunity to build a relationship with a repeat customer who might want Wilsons in the future. 😒
The pursuit of high-fidelity audio through expensive equipment, as championed by publications like Stereophile, often misleads audiophiles by emphasizing component upgrades over the critical influence of listening environments.
ReplyDeleteStereophile’s focus on high-end products—such as amplifiers costing $20,000 or DACs exceeding $10,000—targets enthusiasts who, having started with affordable yet capable systems (e.g., Sony or Samsung electronics), seek superior sound quality. However, this pursuit is fundamentally flawed, as stereophonic audio inherently delivers an illusion of soundstage rather than a true replication of live music. The absence of a universal acoustic reference complicates this quest, leaving audiophiles chasing an elusive realism through ever-costlier equipment.
The logical progression for many begins with upgrading components, driven by the belief that higher prices correlate with enhanced fidelity. Yet, as systems evolve, so do the rules of engagement. Audiophiles often modify their listening spaces—adding acoustic treatments, bass traps, or even dedicating entire rooms—to accommodate high-end equipment. These environmental changes can profoundly improve sound quality by reducing unwanted reflections or standing waves, often contributing more to perceived improvements than the equipment itself. Regrettably, the credit is frequently misattributed to costly amplifiers or speakers rather than the optimized acoustics.
This cycle of upgrades and modifications leads to a critical oversight: few audiophiles revisit their original, affordable components in these refined environments to assess whether the expensive gear truly delivers superior performance. For instance, reintroducing a modest Sony receiver into a treated room with high-end speakers might reveal that much of the perceived improvement stems from acoustics, not the $50,000 amplifier. The high-end industry, including publications like Stereophile, rarely encourages such comparisons, as their business model relies on promoting luxury products as the path to sonic excellence.
The true challenge lies in recognizing that stereo reproduction, by its nature, cannot fully replicate the live experience. While high-end equipment, such as the Accuphase A-300 with its low noise and high damping factor, offers measurable advantages in specific scenarios, these are often inaudible in typical listening conditions due to human auditory limits. Instead of endlessly pursuing marginal gains through costly components, audiophiles would benefit from prioritizing room acoustics and exploring multichannel formats, which can enhance spatial realism more effectively than two-channel systems.
By acknowledging the primacy of the listening environment and conducting objective comparisons, the audio community can move beyond the illusion of realism and focus on meaningful improvements, ensuring that the pursuit of fidelity remains grounded in reality rather than aspiration.
ST
Wow, very well said ST,
DeleteI think that point about the evolution of room acoustics over time and improvements being attributed to the increasingly-priced gear instead of the room is an important one. Indeed, once an audiophile gets to the point of spending $80k on dual-mono D'Agostino M400 MxV amps + $$$ pre-amp, how many would try reverting back to say a very reasonable Sony TA-A1ES integrated amp (~$2k MSRP, I've seen it <$1000 used these days) and try unbiased listen?! Highly unlikely.
And so it goes... As much as I wish it wasn't the case, at some point, maybe it's inevitable that the audiophile community has to end up at odds with the Industry. They need to make money with products built on mature technology with little generational benefits, pushing further into luxury pricing, while the audiophile community is increasingly recognizing this and rightly suspicious of advertising hype.
Indeed going multichannel is the next step. That'll take some convincing for the traditionalists who believe 2-channels is all we ever need and DSP "damages" sound, also a hard one for the LP-loving analogue audiophiles stuck with 2 channel media. Who knows if the High-End will overcome this at some point or if magazines like Stereophile will devote more space to discuss multichannel/Atmos. Without growth, we're looking at stagnation ahead.
We're certainly living in interesting times!
BTW: Great work on the new versions of CTXMatrixBeta!
Hi ST,
DeleteI agree — I’ve been saying the same as you as well. The listening room acoustics are near the top as a priority for audio transparency.
I’ve seen people who believe that an expensive system in a room with poor acoustics will perform better than budget bookshelf speakers and equipment.
High audio transparency doesn’t need to cost multiple thousands of pounds.
hi Dan,
DeleteI don’t think we paid much attention to room acoustics in the beginning. I’m lucky enough to have experienced the full journey—from gramophone to DSD—but it was only in later years, after upgrading to so-called state-of-the-art equipment, that I started paying attention to room acoustics. Going back to Archi’s article: high-end audio isn’t really about sound, it’s about status. Sound becomes the justification—or excuse—to flaunt status.
Long ago, during my stereo days, there was a well-known audiophile here. He used to drop by often, bringing fans to listen to my system. He also introduced me to many setups around the area. One day, he invited me to his place. I said okay and called a few audiophile buddies to come along. The first thing I heard was this—okay, this happened almost 20 years ago, so the words may not be exact: “Don’t waste your time. He uses a JVC player, and his system is in a 10-by-8 bedroom. Cheap speakers stacked on top of each other.” So no one wanted to join.
However, I decided to go alone—and they were right. Barely enough space for two people to squeeze in, with the mattress rolled to the side. I think he moved it out of the room just to make space. And yes, it was a JVC CD player. The amps were unfamiliar. He had some cheap consumer subwoofers. Then he started playing music, including my favorites. I listened attentively and just said, “I think I’ve overspent.”
It was a fine-sounding system. Sure, it could not hit 100 dB, but for actual listening, it was well-tuned. That incident bugged me for a long time. How could people dismiss his system when the sound was genuinely good—better than some high-end setups out there?
So yes, it’s about status. About trophies—equipment to display and show off. That’s what this hobby has become. Not really about sound, except for a few. And these few don’t even bother with the things Stereophile recommends. Like Toole, who placed his main speakers upside down. I don’t think any audiophile would dare do that with their own speakers.
And Archimago—thank you for your continued encouragement. The latest version I’m testing has four EQ dials. Will be sharing that soon.
Hi amigo,
ReplyDeleteIt will be interesting to see what happens when this current generation of children grow into adults. With AI now being part of everyday life, it will soon become very obvious that all these audio magazines and YouTube “stars” promoting luxury are simply copying what AI can generate in a couple of seconds.
Originality will disappear amongst these people, and I think others will realise that they might as well generate their own AI response if they want "subjective opinions” in fanciful words. I think people will become cynical and impatient — sifting through nonsense is very tiring.
When they’re adults, money and luxuries will probably be scarce. My guess is that luxury audio will stop promoting the nonsense of having “better” audio transparency and instead focus on the hard work of the makers, and the years spent studying and practising.
Hey Dan,
DeleteSadly, already I'm routinely seeing what appears to be clearly AI-written articles in my newsfeed; regurgitated stuff that seem to be generated merely for clicks with really no new insights.
By nature, when the topic is not concretely grounded and all kinds of possibilities can be expressed and be just as true based on opinion, generative AI will be phenomenal in creating some really nice, plausible paragraphs!
Back in 2023, I thought ChatGPT did some good work already when I asked it "Write a flowery review about the sound of an expensive vacuum tube amplifier like you're a Stereophile reviewer." If I were a subjective reviewer, it would be so much easier! Just get the LLM to create something, edit here and there so AI checkers don't detect 100%, off you go to the editor!
No doubt, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Who knows if humans become even more cynical and impatient, or maybe human psychology might surprise us with future generations able to reject the nonsense. Or maybe we see a divergence where the more intelligent benefit greater, but less insightful people end up wasting time and going nowhere among the meaningless doom scroll! (The smart get smarter?)
Vienna is incredible, one of the best live music cities on Earth. I lived part time near there and never got tired of it. And "live" includes some incredible street performers- I used to see a Russian trio with balalaikas and accordion playing Mozart...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I had a luxury ($14,000, I think) DAC in house for a couple months for an AudioXpress article. And the high price paid for some very fancy engineering- it really did measure better, in most respects, than excellent but lower priced units. Does that translate to better sound? The company which makes it thinks so. For me, no, but if money were no object and I wanted objectively the best, at least I'd be getting something real rather than imaginary.
Hey SY,
DeleteIndeed, Vienna was amazing and the street performers were excellent. As expected, plenty of classical performances to take in. I also heard some performers in Budapest that were really talented!
Absolutely, audiophiles should be able to buy a nice looking, refined, best-material, best-craftsmanship DAC! So long as it still objectively performs in the top tier of course as a high-fidelity product commensurate with the asking price. I would imagine a company like this would be very happy to be classified as "High-End" luxury while insisting to the Stereophile reviewers that it should be measured so they can show the world with pride the sonic quality of the product!
Alas, human auditory acuity is not as idealistic as some audiophiles imagine themselves to be. 😉
Dear Archimago ...
ReplyDeletelong time lurker - but this time I HAD to comment: I am deeply impressed with your two last posts on "Hi-End", the comparison between the luxury watch industry and your reaction on the Stereophile article from Rogier von Bakel.
If I were an editor-in-chief at Stereophile I would read your recommendations thoroughly. With the availabilty of transparent DACs and amplifiers in the lower to mid price range there is definitely no need to invest in a Rolex Daytona to measure time, any Timex will do - as will a RME DAC or a Benchmark amp.
So yes, I strongly disagree with Stereophile's equation that more money equals better sound. I'm fine with anyone spending more money on craftmanship and/or design and IMHO Stereophile could and should focus on this aspect of hi end products while ensuring that these products measure well by introducing something in the likes of "COSC" (and refrain from cable voodoo and other nonsense).
Thanks a lot for your thoughts and those insightful and well-written posts!
Mark
Greetings Mark,
DeleteAppreciate the response! I've been mulling over this topic and figured it would be good to just finally write the comparison article and have it out there. I'm sure many audiophiles have had similar thoughts and analogies with other hobbies as well.
With the way things have been going in the last decade, the rise of very reasonably priced products and worthy hi-fi performance, it's really quit clear that magazines like Stereophile, and TAS are no longer serving the needs of most audiophiles if they do not talk about or review them.
Yeah, a respected, trustworthy independent organization should form to test "high-end" audio products akin to COSC. We can imagine having a set of minimum adequate objective standards with categories for solid state vs. vacuum tube amps, turntable wow & flutter, amplifier power and frequency response, etc. Manufacturers can pay a fair price to get the stuff tested and in exchange, get a "High-Fidelity" seal of approval depending on the class of product. Unless evidence can be provided to show benefit, classes of products like expensive cables, should be excluded.
I don't know if the high-end industry could be unified enough to agree to something like this and the basic certification standards though!
All the best!
Archimago ...
Deletethanks a lot for your reply, very much appreciated.
My thoughts on the "unification" of the high-end industry: It will never happen. Or at least: There will always be peddlers of audiophile snake oil along with their shills and con men as in every other industry. There's a whole bunch of them in the watch industry as well and the COSC/METAS/... certification is just an option some of the players such as Tudor or Omega choose.
Yes, there is nothing comparable to COSC or METAS in the high-end business and IMHO that is the result of the failures of the industry's gatekeepers such as Stereophile or TAS.
You will remember very well how Stereophile was a shill for MQA without even asking a single question on how that "technology" was supposed to work. It was you who spend a whole bunch of time and brainwork to unveil that the MQA Emperor had no clothes. Contrast this with Stereophile's mission statement on their "About us" page (https://www.stereophile.com/content/about-us): “Whatever the medium via which audiophiles choose to enjoy their music [...] you will be able to read about it and how to get the best from it in Stereophile." Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
When attacking those who do the gatekeeping these days as van Bakel did ("the Anger, Smugness, and Rigidity found on certain objectivist audio forums") is your last resort you have lost your raison d'etre.
Keep up your good and valuable work, I'm very grateful for that.
"Yeah, a respected, trustworthy independent organization should form to test "high-end" audio products akin to COSC." That will never fly. The soi disant "high end" market has three types of players.
Delete1. Like the product I just mentioned- objectively excellent performance and creative engineering at a high price. But... how does one test the claims of consequent sonic superiority?
2. Products that have not particularly excellent performance, sometimes even downright lousy performance, but are sold on the basis of a story. For example NOS R2R DACs or SET amplifiers. The marketeers will dismiss the need for measurement out of hand and insist that the products can only be evaluated on the basis of sound. And you can see where THAT goes.
3. What I call "Seinfeld" products- they actually do nothing. Cables, interconnects, magic rocks, reclockers, line conditioners, electromagnetic field enhancers... How does an independent body measure imaginary stuff?
So other than a small fraction of Category 1, there is just no role for such a body in the high end audio market any moreso than a body which evaluates psychics and astrologers for a seal of approval. At least Rolexes tell time relatively accurately.
Thanks for the discussion Mark and SY,
DeleteSadly it comes back to the question of whether the High-End arena has any desire to be anchored in objective high-fidelity. Likewise, the magazines need to ask themselves where they stand as well. If there are no limits to whether companies need to satisfy "truth in advertising" and anything goes when it comes of what "better sound" is about, then I guess audiophiles who believe there is something to the idea of good engineering, fidelity, accuracy just have to divorce from that High-End segment. To some extent, I think many of us have already at least separated if not formally divorced, but maybe like myself still wishing that magazines like Stereophile are able to stay true with the hi-fi intent even if out of necessity cater to the luxury market making sure to express the nature of the products accurately.
As for a COSC or METAS-like certification, I would hope that the High-End industry can see the benefit of something like this to ensure purchasers that specs are in-line with what's expected of finely engineered sound. I'm reminded of this article about the Oneiros speakers they proudly claim based on F1 car technology and all that jazz! So what if they cost $650k/pair? So what if the drivers are "graphene-infused"? Or used "lab-created diamonds" in the tweeters. There was literally nothing in that article to suggest that the engineering resulted in well-engineered sound quality! However, if there was an independent, respected lab that certified high-fidelity performance, then that badge of approval would at least have given readers some confidence.
"Seinfeld" products that do nothing I agree should not be certified. There are unsavory individuals like Ted Denney of Synergistic Research magazines should have avoided from the start rather than given them a platform for announcing obvious nonsense.
Stereophile long ago- I mean like almost 40 years ago- gave up the idea of being about fidelity. They promote Seinfeld products with the same voracity as actually functional products; likewise poorly performing products, the kind that, when measurements appear, the real fun is watching Atkinson dance. Absolute Sound was never about fidelity.
DeleteWhy in the world would you have any reason to think there's any chance that this would change? Or that the vast majority of companies in the luxury audio sector would give a rat's ass about objective certification? That's not what their customers care about.
I can't back this up with data, but... my impression is that this market segment is (literally) dying. The customers for it are aging out.
You could be right SY,
DeleteNo data but I would not be surprised about the slow death of High-End Audio and the magazines. And who knows, maybe that's actually for the better; even the right thing to happen in order to correct for the generations of mistruths perpetuated by the industry.
Regardless, there will always be music lovers. There will still be excellent performing high-fidelity stuff to buy!
The comparison of HiFi audio components to luxury watches seems like a false comparison for exactly the reasons you described. I have a luxury watch. I bought it as a piece of jewelry and not for time accuracy. It's pretty. I like its aesthetics the history surrounding the brand. I used to own expensive audio gear because information sources were more limited a couple of decades ago and I wanted confidence that the gear was going to deliver the best technical performance. Today it's Hypex amplifiers, SMSL DAC, Roon, and Qobuz. Information is more readily available and those pieces are demonstrably better than my old gear. Inexpensive gear these days have small footprints, reasonably elegant looks, and are very easy to live with.
ReplyDeleteHey there Doug,
DeleteYou've highlighted the reason why I'm making the comparison. Because of the difference between how performance and luxury are accepted and spoken of.
You accept that your luxury watch is a type of jewelry and transcends its function of timekeeping so it doesn't have to be of the highest accuracy - it looks good, and by extension, makes you look good as a man with financial means. That's why you pay the big bucks!
You clearly want your audio system to be precise in its hi-fi performance hence you've picked reasonably-priced Hypex and SMSL; typically not the best looking or luxurious pieces among audiophile products.
However, we see this other world of amplifiers and DACs priced many many times that of your Hypex and SMSL that do not perform as well accuracy-wise. Many of them look amazing though with handcrafted designs and materials, perhaps they glow in the dark with nice tubes. But Stereophile doesn't overtly see them as functioning like a form of jewelry. And worse, simply based on price, they have a tendency to suggest they sound amazing (as per van Bakel's article, a defense of the $10k DAC - because it's priced high) with no evidence that the money is going into achieving higher objective fidelity.
I hope to see the day when audiophiles and magazines can be as transparent as you are in acknowledging that like a wristwatch, sometimes we buy high-priced audio gear based on luxury, that "jewelry" aspect, for the purpose of making us feel good and look good when audio buddies come by, but likely not as high-fidelity as your Hypex/SMSL.
Interesting stuff as usual, especially concerning the difference between "high fidelity" and just general "high end" equipment. I'm certainly in the former camp, but I still hope there's a future for luxury audio.
ReplyDeleteAlso, some lovely photos!
Thanks Freddie,
DeleteYeah, we'll see how this all plays out! Even if the High-End industry suffers badly, there will still be excellent products in the used market. 😉
I didn't actually read the Stereophile article until now... I guess there's a difference between component types though. Standard electronics like top notch DACs and amplifiers cost a couple of hundred dollars nowadays, while the best "high fidelity" speakers do cost a lot more.
DeleteI'm thinking of for example Kii Three and Dutch & Dutch 8c, both of which are focused on performance rather than luxury, while costing something like $15,000. This is certainly much more than most people are willing to pay for speakers, but still much less than the ultimate "luxury" speakers.
Yeah, some stuff can be pretty expensive like the Kii and D&D. Looks like there's good R&D in the products though and they combine lots of tech into the box (like integrated DAC, amplification, DSP, Roon compatibility...) on top of the speaker performance.
DeleteSo there's a lot in those for end users to weigh the pros and cons of either getting the whole package at that price point or spreading the feature out piecemeal. While there's nice styling and design, I agree that the intent in those products are not to emphasize luxury over actual objectively demonstrable performance and features.
[Speaking of features, I think it's pretty cool that the Dutch & Dutch 8c incorporated crosstalk cancellation in the form of uBACCH back in 2023.]
So I guess Stereophile still attempts to serve the advertisers and readers, but it seems increasingly obvious that the editorial content is slanted towards pleasing the companies placing ads therein. To me that suggests the decision makers at AV Tech media believe their subscriber base will not be diminished significantly by going in this direction. Is it coincidental that the appearance of this piece followed shortly after their decision to eliminate readers ability to comment on articles in their publication? Is this telling us that the magazine is under increasing pressure to deliver better results for their advertisers? Is that telling us that some members of the high-end audio manufacturing industry are struggling financially in our uncertain and unstable economic environment? I'm pretty sure the answer to all of those is 'yes' , but the industry's financial performance and profitability are difficult to discern as they are mostly either/or foreign owned, privately held, or small parts of much larger corporate entities.
ReplyDeleteGood questions David,
DeleteWhatever is happening behind the scenes when it comes to the health of the market, we can speculate and perhaps see in the months and years ahead.
One thing I think is clear when decisions are made to curb the freedom for readers to express their thoughts is that this is a sign that the influence these magazines once had (or thought they had?) to dictate the discussions and shape the course of audiophilia is long gone.
Surely, if they opened up comments to that editorial "defense of sticker shock", the responses would have been swift and expectedly, honestly, brutal. There's just so much nonsense in that article that I think many of us would have a field day gathering thoughts to express disgust!
BTW, I just had a quick peek at the 2nd paragraph where he says:
"Building high-end hi-fi equipment costs serious coin, but you wouldn't know it from the Anger, Smugness, and Rigidity found on certain objectivist audio forums, where anything north of, say, $5000 is deemed a ripoff or a status buy. To posters in those snark-infested waters, expensive equals unfair."
Wow! There's always this underlying implication that just because a hobbyist desires good performance, big bucks like $5000+ is somehow normally warranted. Furthermore, we're somehow perhaps jealous and thinking it's a "fairness" issue?! That could not be further from the truth.
We already know that fair performance can be achieved at fair prices; for some companies to sell snake oil that do not perform at all or insist on dealing with manufacturers that push prices while suggesting that equivalent performance might not be achievable unless one were to pay such costs can be seen as disingenuous, if not at time simply dishonest!
hi Arch , I'm writing to you from Italy and I'm using a translator - I hope the meaning of the letter is good.
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime, congratulations for the site even if I don't agree with everything you say, you're strong, keep it up.
I wanted to tell you that 90% of those who call themselves audiophiles are actually interested in the audio object and then in music at least in my experience - who is it really interested in music, he doesn't spend tens of thousands of euros or dollars on the hi-fi system and I consider myself a real audiophile since I was a child when, reading magazines and visiting hi-fi fairs, I was fascinated by the beauty and technology of objects.
my father with his brothers had a radio and hi-fi shop that was all tube at the time and I was and still am in love with it - seeing all those lights and feeling their warmth was something special. Over time my passion has developed more and more and after countless changes and economic sacrifices I have arrived at the system that I now own, all valvular, which gives me enormous satisfaction. If I could afford it, I too would spend thousands and thousands of euros on equipment - but unfortunately or fortunately I always turn to used vehicles where excellent deals can be done. Obviously in the tube field since I was a child the most attractive and desired brand was Audio Research and now that I own it I feel satisfied.
the true audiophile does not insistently look for the original vinyl or CD prints of the time but looks for the best recorded special editions to be able to appreciate them in the system - sometimes he listens to music that is not to his liking just to hear how the system sounds, Is it a fault ?? It's a disease ?? It's a whim ?? I don't know but let's let everyone be free to have their foibles - just admit it - which many don't. Obviously I and we audiophiles also really like music which, however, could very well be listened to with a lot of money less.I agree with you when you talk about blind listening that no one would recognize a 500 euro or 10,000 euro cable - a dac or something else - but if you change my dac in my system that I know by heart, after 10 minutes of listening I feel it I'm sure.
I also agree with you about the crisis in the sector due to crazy prices and I also believe that they should create a high-end without technical measures (like Rolex - an example that fits very well - only for the supericchi.
I'll close with one last thing - I bought and tried the Kimber Kable 12TC clone cable - and it sounds great - now it's in my system and it replaced the old cable - it's so well made and cared for that I doubt it's a clone and the suspicions Kimber makes in China are many.
Sorry for this long letter and keep it up but don't always blame the magazines, they do their job and have to sell to get their salary.
Hello from Lele
Great hearing from you Lele!
DeleteYeah, I certainly don't expect readers to agree with me on all things so that's totally cool. Absolutely, I think you're right that many (maybe even most) self-professed audiophiles have an interest in the "things" - as in the hardware of the hobby even though most also (I hope!) love music of course.
My concern with some people and the magazines is when they seem to always have to justify every penny spent as if in the service of achieving "sound quality" rather than recognizing that as humans, we do care about the feelings and intangible benefits we get by owning a luxury product. 🙂
I appreciate the audiophile like yourself who can just be honest and say they like the hardware for what it is. That you've achieved joy with your Audio Research tube gear! Happy that you've found the satisfaction of owning high quality products.
As for the clone cables, I agree with you. While I suspect the cable companies would never admit to it, some clones probably come from the same assembly lines! I've looked at a few of these already and compared them to the real item and I don't think I can tell them apart without very close inspection. At best slight differences only like the exact number of strands.
Clearly huge markup in the cable world for equivalent performance!!!
Cheers!
I'm like a number of other people here in that I place myself in the science and engineering driven "high fidelity" camp. I actually refuse to refer to myself as an audiophile because I don't want to be associated with all the flimflammery of the "high end!"
ReplyDeleteI've come to the conclusion that the vast majority of the subjective review sites are little more than external marketing departments of high-end manufacturers, and are locked into a perpetual quid pro quo scheme with them to keep it all going.
I'm happy to see reputable, objective reviews pushing back on all of the nonsense. It's definitely having a serious impact, as evidenced by the growing number of protests, with that Stereophile article being but one example.
All the best...😎
Thanks for the note Art.
DeleteHow you put it as "a perpetual quid pro quo scheme with them to keep it all going" rings true for much of this subjective industry. Magazines need to make money, they are dependent on the good graces of the companies that buy advertising space and send them $100k speakers to review. Likewise the companies need exposure for their products so I guess the business math has worked for decades.
The arrangement is pretty normal I think for most magazines these days. The problem is when advertising becomes propaganda. I don't think many audiophiles would object if the Industry were making strides forward, magazine writers reporting verifiable and significant fidelity gains. Even if there's a small, but tolerable, amount of fringe snake oil, many of us might not be too concerned.
These days, IMO, it's mostly subjective empty hype trying to create excitement about otherwise mature technologies, plus loss of reality-testing to weed out myths, in an industry that's trying to extract money with ever-increasing prices without acknowledging the desire to promote their entry into the luxury market. That kind of manipulation is like propaganda that is trying to sway hobbyist opinions and purchasing behaviour through means that I believe are misleading and at times unethical.
I agree, the times they are a-changin' within the audiophile hobby. All the best Art!
Hi Arch, your pictures brought good memories of Budapest. Maybe we crossed paths (I was there two weeks ago and stayed near the park with the ferry wheel and the Oktoberfest band). Hope you got to go check out the beautiful Opera House and the hot baths!
ReplyDeleteYeah nicoff,
DeletePerhaps our paths did cross! Yes, I was staying at a hotel near the ferris wheel also and spent most of a day out at the Széchenyi Baths - very relaxing!
The opera house was amazing but unfortunately we didn't take in any shows - my wife wasn't quite up for opera although I would have enjoyed the experience.
Loved the vibrancy and "life" in Budapest; certainly a very different experience compared to Prague and Vienna. Cheers!