"As an audiophile with an eclectic taste in music, I feel that life is too short not to enjoy the full audible frequency range."
That statement above is just an audiophile's (my) opinion. While I know some audiophiles debate about the need for the use of subwoofers, it has always been a "must" for my reference systems over the decades. Obviously, it's not really my business what anyone else buys or enjoys for themselves. My only intent in this post is to remind audiophiles that most of our passive speaker systems, including relatively large floor-standers, are frequency bandwidth limited (for human hearing).
I know that there are some audiophiles and well-known reviewers out there who have expressed aversion towards the need for full-frequency reproduction - basically flat frequency response down to 20Hz - as a priority. Since robust low-frequency reproduction below 40-50Hz commonly requires an adequate subwoofer, it's surprising to me that the idea of having one isn't more universal among audiophiles, and there are often comments like this warning of issues that come across as dissuasive.
I was reminded of this perception that audiophile systems don't need to reproduce sub-bass recently when I visited a friend's place, shocked that he had replaced what I thought were excellent-sounding floor-standers (about $15k/pair) for relatively exotic, nice looking, bookshelf speakers ($20k/pair) which he said delivers excellent midrange rendering based on reviews he read. When listening to the system, I was struck by an obvious reduction in bass response; his previous speakers were capable of playback down to ~45Hz, and with these new speakers, he's probably only getting down to something like a relatively flat 60-70Hz in the room!
Whether the mid-range improved as he claimed based on "reviews", was hard for me to say since the previous speakers sounded great already with typical audiophile vocals and acoustic jazz (you know, the Diana Kralls of this world, Kind of Blue), and impossible to verify since those speakers were sold off already. To me, it's cognitively dissonant to be spending more money on upgrading "high end" gear if bass frequency response is so obviously limited. Already with his previous floor-standers, he was missing that first octave from 20-40Hz, and for sure he was not fully experiencing some of the content in music I know he loves (like modern synthpop).
In my mind, that $5,000 difference could have bought a nice sub to supplement the bass for those floor-standers instead of spending that money to get even less frequency coverage.
Low bass is obviously highly audible (if not heard, experienced as vibrations or pressure), and IMO audiophiles need not make excuses when large exotic $14,000 speakers like these can barely muster 100Hz! Seriously, don't even not think about pairing speakers like these to a sub (or just decent woofers!).
[Why would the Voxativ Ampeggio 2024 even be a finalist in Stereophile's "Loudspeaker of the Year" or "Overall Product of the Year" or need to be highlighted in the "Editors' Choice" for 2024?! No mention at all that you'd basically need to pair these with the passive 10" Voxativ Z-Bass "sub" - another $4-5k each. You would need 2 of these because the crossover would have to be >100Hz due to the Ampeggio's bass roll-off so localization would be an issue with just one.
Arguably, those Voxativ speakers really are $20+k speaker/pair to account for the pair of Z-Bass units you'd likely want to add. Neither the Stereophile reviewer Ken Micallef nor John Atkinson discuss such commonsense basics. Nor is there any impression of this in their Product of the Year column. Come on guys, are you sure you're writing these reviews in the service of audiophile consumers rather than just to advertise for the company?]
There are articles out there like Steve Guttenberg and his "case against subwoofers for music" from 2018. I guess if one only listens to string quartets, his statement suggesting "music rarely has extremely deep, under-50Hz bass, and most speakers with 5-inch (127mm) or larger woofers can muster 50Hz bass in small or midsize rooms" might make sense! I would argue that the vast majority of music that most people enjoy these days will have significant content below 50Hz due to the incorporation of synthetic/electronic sounds in modern productions.
Here's a chart of the frequency range for instruments. I've added the highlight for frequencies <50Hz to show some of the instruments that would be impacted if there is premature roll-off:
Sure, while most acoustic instruments would sound fine, something could still be lost in the spectral characteristics of pianos, tubas, harpsichords, and bass. More importantly, the most popular genres these days like pop, rock, hip-hop, R&B, EDM, and country, combined representing >90% of album sales, ubiquitously utilize synthetic instruments and sounds. If one in any way has a broad musical palate, it would be impossible to not come across songs where sub-bass content is a meaningful element in the experience!
BTW, in 2023, Taylor Swift sold more records than the whole jazz genre.
Never underestimate the importance of high-fidelity bass reproduction:
"The correlations between the subjective ratings and the objective predictions are too high to ignore: 0.86 (for loudspeakers of varying low-frequency extension) to 0.995 (for loudspeakers of comparable bandwidth), p = <0.0001 in both cases. Bass performance alone accounted for about 30% of the overall subjective ratings — spectral balance matters."
Floyd Toole, The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems, JAES, 2015
While Toole's quote doesn't specifically speak of sub-bass frequencies, typically defined as below 60Hz, I trust that most of us appreciate that when those low frequencies are well-reproduced, even if for brief periods of time like during the climax of an orchestral piece, there's a very substantial change in the emotional impact of the music. High quality sub-bass frequency extension is not "subtle" (unlike the silly things audiophiles spend all kinds of crazy money and time on!).
So what do fellow audiophiles think?
It's good to see that in a poll on Steve Hoffman Forums from 2020 to 2022 of around 500 audiophiles/music lovers, the results were quite favorable towards the use of subs:
Already >60% of respondents were either highly supportive or have caveats which can be addressed as compared to 30% who seemed more opposed to using subs, and 7% fence-sitting 🤔.
I would agree with many of the audiophiles that the key is to achieve good subwoofer (or subwoofers) integration in the system. While it takes some work to optimize sub controls (output level, phase, positioning), and perhaps add room treatments, I would argue that modern DSP packages like Dirac Live discussed last week have made the whole process much easier and with excellent results well beyond what's often practically achievable with physical room treatments alone. Even without applying fancy DSP, by using a measurement microphone with free software like REW, we can take much of the guesswork out of system tuning; much more accurate than "by ear" tweaking!
Optimizing sonic quality in one's listening room takes time and work. So what? I suspect perfectionistic audiophiles enjoy this work and will appreciate the results obtained. IMO, time is much better spent doing this than reading/watching yet more questionable subjective-only reviews suggesting ways audiophiles should spend their money.
Summary & opinions...
For me, it comes to this:
1. There are obviously situations where full-range frequency response down to sub-bass is not desirable. For example, if one lives in a condo, apartment, townhouse, duplex, etc. with poor sound isolation from adjacent units, deep 20Hz bass is not going to make neighbors happy. In a situation like that where it's going to be rare that one can fully enjoy the sub-bass expansion, then definitely do not waste money on what you would not use. Likewise, if it's a background music system for casual playback just to enjoy tunes in the kitchen, well, focus on convenience, not deep bass quality.2. If you are an audiophile who wants to experience all the audible frequencies in your music (and possibly movie soundtracks), and you listen to music with electronic instruments and synthetic sounds (rock, pop, dance, hip-hop, R&B, electronica, metal) then you want to hear the sub-bass.
Unless you have a massive speaker that can do justice to frequencies down to 20-30Hz (maybe the Wilson Chronosonic XVX paired with a powerful amp?), this means most of us will need to add a sub. IMO, to use and spend time integrating a subwoofer into one's audiophile speaker system should just be a normal expectation in this hobby.
I see no exceptions to this recommendation because anything else would be a compromise from the ideal.3. If you are an audiophile who wants to experience all the audible frequencies in your music and you only listen to smaller-scale acoustic music (eg. classical string quartets, jazz, folk) - no orchestral pieces, no pipe organ music (32' pipes go down to 16Hz), no bass, no piano playing lower keys (A0 to G1 all below 50Hz), no bass/kick drum - then you don't need sub-bass reproduction.I would guess these restrictions apply to few of us audiophile music lovers!
Philosophically, if high-fidelity audio is about transparency, being able to hear everything on our recordings, an ideal hi-fi system would not be missing those lowest audible frequencies; this loss of content would be a type of "distortion". It's one of a number of aspirational goals that is just as important as low noise (including low ambient room noise), low distortion, and high dynamic range.
As you know, when we get older, we lose the ability to hear high frequencies >10kHz more so than low frequencies. I look forward to still enjoying the deep bass in my later years. 😐
Let's close off with some practical points regarding the use of subwoofers.
A simple rule-of-thumb I've heard is to choose a sub that's 3-5" larger than the largest driver (woofer) in your speaker. There are obviously a lot of variations between drivers, and sub quality, but we can generally say that larger drivers can sustain deeper frequencies but might not do as well if asked to reproduce higher frequencies. Clearly, the drivers in the speakers you have need to smoothly overlap with the proposed added subwoofer.
For example, a small KEF LS50 Meta (~US$1000) has a single 5.25" woofer and can be pretty good down to around 60-70Hz. On the smaller end, an 8" Definitive Tech Descend DN8 (~US$350) will probably get you down to the mid-30Hz range. And on the larger end, one could try out a 10" DN10 (~$560) or maybe the Klipsch R-100SW (~$330) which should get you into the low-30's or upper-20's range.
To reproduce those long wavelengths, we need quite a bit of energy to displace the air and create an adequately loud sound pressure. Smaller drivers will need higher excursion to reach deeper, like the Devialet Phantom II with their dual aluminum woofers asked to handle deep bass:
Typically if you want to get down all the way to 20Hz with low distortion, you're looking at least to single-driver 12" if not 15" subwoofer models like the Def Tech DN15 (~US$1000) or SVS PB-1000 Pro (~US$800). Alternatively, look for multi-driver high-excursion units - for example, my Paradigm Signature SUB1 (US$3500 before discontinued) has 6 x 8" active drivers with frequency extension below 20Hz.
We can only know whether a massive 15" sub would gracefully blend in with the 5.25" KEF LS50 Meta's woofer if we try it out.
Instead of a single large driver, with multi-driver speakers, we can add up the individual driver surface areas. Consider this chart, based on Dayton driver values as an estimate:
Diameter Area Relative Size
4.00" == 37.4 cm² == 1.00
5.00" == 52.8 cm² == 1.41
5.25" == 93.3 cm² == 2.49
6.00" == 84.9 cm² == 2.27
6.50" == 134.8cm² == 3.60
7.00" == 132.7cm² == 3.55 (typ. 125cm²)
8.00" == 211.2cm² == 5.65
10.0" == 343.1cm² == 9.17
12.0" == 498.8cm² == 13.3
15.0" == 843.7cm² == 22.6
With a 4" diameter woofer standardized at 1.00, it would take 5.65 of those little woofers to equal the surface area of a single 8" driver! And 4 of those 8" drivers would approximately equal the surface area of a 15" woofer.
Take an example like the SVS 3000 Micro (~US$700) with dual-8" drivers, which would add up to something like an equivalent-11" driver capable of frequency extension down to ~25Hz. Beyond surface area, the other important factor is excursion depth as noted above and demonstrated with the little Devialet speaker. Other complexities to consider include DSP capabilities, and how much power is on tap to handle the dynamics as demanded by the size of your room.
For those wanting to read more about getting a subwoofer and what to look for, check out Hsu Research's The Most Comprehensive Guide to Choosing a Subwoofer.
Wishing you happy listening, dear audiophiles. Experiencing all that your favourite music has to offer as we enter this holiday season.
PS: A fun demo track to try with your sub(s) - Tiësto & Sevenn's "BOOM". Even more fun with the multichannel/Atmos mix!
Addendum - November 29, 2024: New Ageism in Audiophilia - example from https://ojas.nyc/.
Hey guys, just wanted to add this as an extension to the comments below brought up by Daniel D. I guess the topic was sparked by the recent Darko Audio YouTube "interview":
As you can see on the website, moving your mouse over the "Natural Sound" banner gives us this bizarre text definition of what is supposedly "The Nature of Sound". Some kind of combination "vibration of ether" and "vibration of air".
Clearly this is pseudoscientific, New Age spiritual language and one cannot take this kind of stuff literally in the modern era (just like we cannot seriously talk about pseudoscientific medical practices in the context of severe illness). And one cannot seriously utilize whatever philosophy this comes from as an engineer of high-fidelity audio products except to view the words as an expression of psychological projections - the source of our fantasies and possibly "art", I suppose, as opposed to meaningless emotional or cognitive madness.
Did a quick search and I see that the word "ojas" means "radiance", "vigor", and "vitality" among the ayurvedic ideas. Apparently: "Ojas is an elastic,oily, cold, white liquid and is located in the heart". Sure.
Cool that Supreme, Mark Ronson, and Prada like Devon Turnbull's sound systems. Not seemingly compatible my concept of audiophile hi-fi, philosophy, or sense of value.
I certainly agree about the importance of bass. One thing I’d like to see, though, is a study of how much the use of a sub reduces distortion in the higher bass frequencies (say 60-120Hz). If we go to Erin’s Audio Corner and take a look at the Wharfedale Super Linton measurements (which he rates very highly) we see distortion >-40dB (1%) from around 150Hz down when driven to 96dB. Since ideally we’d like to keep distortion below 1% this may be a good candidate for a sub crossed over around 80Hz.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately the standard method of testing subs is to measure distortion at max SPL, which is typically far higher than 96dB (and far louder than most would ever go). Most subs put out around 5% THD in the upper bass, but that’s at max SPL, which is typically over 110dB for a good one so it’s impossible to compare.
It would be interesting to see measurements of system distortion at a reasonable level (like 96dB) both with a speaker on its own and when paired with a subwoofer with bass management. Maybe someone has already done this?
Thanks Charles,
DeleteI agree, worthwhile checking out and an important consideration when it comes to setting the crossover points. Obviously there's also the fact that the amplifier, not having to reproduce low bass gets a bit of a break.
Would be interesting if there are articles out there already about reducing distortion and measured "synergism" with speaker-sub pairs as a proof of concept.
Hej Arch,
ReplyDeleteI don’t understand the reluctance and in some cases aversion to the addition of subwoofers to any speaker set up. Audiophiles are sadly infamous for their quirky and often borderline unbalanced acceptance of snake oil implementations in their hobby. So, when something as straightforward as adding subwoofers is met with skepticism and derision, I am at a loss to understand the lack of logic and common sense. It’s on par with the lovely reasoning of only needing two speakers as we only have two ears. I do believe that most of these nay sayers will convert if only they bothered to try a subwoofer in their system. If they are willing to spend pointlessly on cable risers or this: https://www.synergisticresearch.com/isolation/accessories/carbon-tuning-disks/ then why not something that is guaranteed to improve the listening experience?
I can sympathize with those who are undecided because I was initially hesitant. Did I want a ported or sealed subwoofer? Active or passive? One or two? As with every bit of equipment in this hobby there are also huge price differences but as we have learned from amps and dacs you need not spend huge sums to get great rewards.
Thanks for another enjoyable read.
Cheers
Yo Mike,
DeleteThanks for the note. Oooohhh, Synergistic carbon "tuning" discs. I'll take 8 *purple* ones please. 🤣
Yeah... Well, as usual, I don't blame audiophiles for how we think. I do however blame the usual audiophile media, whether old-skool magazines or modern YouTube salesmen who for decades now have not honestly discussed how things work or confront some of these audiophile cultural beliefs that need updating!
Hi Arch, I agree that that far too many audiophiles have subscribed to the many disingenuous opinions and reviews that are all too prevalent in today’s audiophile media. Spewing nonsense for reasons that we can only speculate in the whys and wherefores. However, there are those hobbyists who refer to themselves as purists. Resisting change that they perceive as deviating from long-held norms of how the hobby is best appreciated. They are found everywhere. Our all too familiar dinosaurs. 😊
DeleteHi, Arch
ReplyDeleteVery interesting point and I agree with everything you said - for the music people listen to these days (or for home cinema) almost no speaker will do what a sub does and it's more or less mandatory to experience the first octave.
Just to add a different perspective - I'm in the small category that doesn't need a sub, I listen to jazz 90% of the time and if a speaker can do 40hz at -3dB I'm fine - as long as the bass is well defined, which is very important for a double-bass being played pizzicato (specs can be wildly misleading in this regard, I've heard plenty of speakers that do 40Hz, but without any definition).
Saying this, what bothers me about subs is i feel music looses "coesion" - the bass comes from one place and the other instruments from another place, it ruins the experience of a jazz piano trio for me... I much rather have a tower speaker that goes to 40Hz and fell all the music comes from the same place. But I understand my position is a very rare one.
Anyway, great post!
Thanks Jorge,
DeleteGreat to hear from someone who understands his musical tastes, expressing the understanding well.
I agree, whether we need a sub or not, as audiophiles, there is always something to be said about making sure we maintain the quality of the playback. For the low-end, this definitely means making sure the 40Hz or 30Hz or 20Hz frequencies are "tight" without "overhang" that muddles up the audio playback.
Clearly, not-just-any subwoofer will do for a good system. Back in the day, I've used annoying subs that have humming power supplies and have "lumpy" irregular frequency responses. Most annoying were the cheap Home-Theater-In-A-Box subs and an old Logitech computer audio "sub" (more like just a woofer) that are hollow and created the impression of "one note bass" boom.
For me, while I advocate subs, I want to make it clear as well that quality is very important. Sometimes better to go without until we save up for a good model that doesn't ruin the rest of the sound.
Also good point about the "cohesion" aspect of music. Must make sure the integration is good and that the crossover point is low enough to avoid localization of the sub (I typically aim for <80Hz THX standard), especially if just one sub, that would ruin the stereo soundstage every time those low notes seem to be coming from somewhere else.
This article might encourage me to add a subwoofer. I am a bit limited on what I can set up in my listening room (living room). I usher at our local performing arts music hall and there is absolutely something missing in the bass region when listening at home.
ReplyDeleteGive it a go Doug :-).
DeleteI think there's something to also be said about the presence of low-bass that adds to the feeling of "reality", even sense of comfort, when we're in a concert hall beyond the frequency range of the instruments. It's part of the ambiance in the space.
The other day, I was listening to a live recording of "Butterfly Lovers" concerto on DSD (Chloe Chua, Singapore Symphony) and could hear the nature of the noise floor which contains low-bass when analyzed, mostly <200Hz.
Hi Arch, of course you know I agree :-) I have large floorstanders that have solid output to 40Hz, but I paired them with Rythmik dual F18 subs that measure down to 6Hz in my room. You can feel the waves! I would never go back.
ReplyDeleteFor those looking into a sub, whether drivers or systems, https://data-bass.com/ is an invaluable resource.
Another fun resource to test your sub frequencies is:
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_subwooferkicktest.php
Of course, the old Boston Acoustics subwoofer cooker test. Be careful with the volume!
Of course using DSP/DRC with digital crossovers is one of the best ways to integrate subs with mains. The subs are time aligned with the mains and the digital xo properly sums the two together, aside from the room correction. Requires a MCH DAC, but to me worth it.
Keep up the good writings Arch!
Hey Mitch,
DeleteYour set-up is insane man with those dual 18" monsters! 6Hz eh? It's a good thing I know you live in detached housing away from neighbors who might otherwise worry about an earthquake! 😖
Thanks for the links. Very nice. I see that the sub database hasn't been updated in awhile (around 2019?). Great information for what's up there though. Also the forum thread on the most impressive bass movies discussion has some great suggestions!
Also, interesting discussion of the Guttenberg article in their forum. Didn't look like they were impressed when the article came out a few years back. "Mostly audiophool drivel" - yeah, something like that.
Cheers and all the best, Mitch!
I am a complete convert to the pro-sub point of view. I suspect many of the skeptics simply haven't heard a good implementation. Many people (including myself, at first) tend to overdo it and add too much, especially in the crossover region. In my HT setup, the sub is tuned so that I frequently wonder if it is even working -- if the source material doesn't contain deep bass, it is inaudible. The excitement when it is there, though, adds so much to the experience.
ReplyDeleteOne of the joys of the audiophile hobby is discovering things in familiar music that I didn't know were there. I no longer believe that magic cables and the like will reveal them. But there is no question that finding deep bass in recordings where I had never suspected it existed has been tremendous fun.
The point about easing the load on the main speakers and amplifiers is also important.
There's also a strong economic argument. Very good speakers from 50 or 60Hz up can be had at reasonable cost; so can good subs. Good full range speakers that can go down to 30Hz or below tend to be far more expensive than a satellite-sub combo.
Hey there meme,
DeleteAbsolutely. Many excellent points there and the discovery of "I've never heard that before!" in a favourite familiar album is definitely a very nice feeling!
I like the economic argument as well. A good sized book-shelf of good quality paired with appropriate active sub(s) for the crossover coverage can sound excellent, often at a much lower price point than large speakers.
Cheers!
I think the problem is that most people have small homes and intolerant neighbors, making anything beyond premium Sennheiser headphones and a headphone amp pointless. My guess is that the vast majority of people outright against subwoofers will have these issues mentioned. I love my 12-inch BK Electronics subwoofer. I didn't do much research into subwoofers; I just knew I wanted the capability to play the full hearing range on my hi-fi. I really enjoy a natural, open, clear drum sound, and my subwoofer makes an obvious improvement for me. I think it needs fine-tuning. At some point, I'll get around to learning how to measure my room's acoustics and see how I can improve my audio system.
ReplyDeleteNice man, had a quick look and don't think you can go wrong with those BK subs. Even the less inexpensive 10" one has continuous phase adjustment which is a nice feature for tweaking.
DeleteHave fun with the measurements and fine-tuning! :-)
Hi, amigo, what I meant when I said I didn’t do much research was that I didn’t look at the technical side. I read reviews and checked the subwoofer’s frequency response and figured I wouldn’t be too far off. I only have a small audio room, and one of the things I was concerned about was the subwoofer’s size. However, I read someone saying that a subwoofer can’t be oversized, so I chose to believe this without confirmation. I’m human, and my ego found a reason to justify what’s probably an oversized subwoofer for my room.
DeleteFor sure, a subwoofer is a big plus for an audio system -- not just to reach lower frequencies, but to fill in nodes caused by room acoustics. All DRC programs can cut down peaks nicely, but only another sound source can fill in room-induced node(s). Multiple subs do that even better than one. I look forward to more audio-focused processors that work well to integrate multiple subs, not only one or two.
ReplyDeleteYup, them darn room modes! Gotta plug up those frequency holes!
DeleteCheers Roth
Hi Arch-
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more.
I understand that subs can be difficult to integrate. And yes, in apt. buildings they may not be suitable.
I went from medium size floorstanders - nice bass down to about 40hz - to Kii Threes. The Threes have better bass and go lower easily to 30 hz without significant rolloff.
The difference in the sound of music just from that change of bass was very noticeable. Even on jazz, bass sounded better and more nuanced. (both systems were corrected with DRC in a room with bass traps, etc.).
I added the Kii BXT a few months ago. They go lower - but not into major sub bass - , but they enable the whole system to produce both bass and mids better.
The difference is very noticeable - on all kinds of music.
In the Kii system you can turn the BXT on and off with a tap. So it's easy to hear what it adds/changes.
Properly integrated subs let your main speakers do what they are best at. Having better and lower bass adds realism, a more "natural" sound, and in recordings with the actual sound of a space - the space is much more clearly audible and defined.
Nice Danny,
DeleteThose Kii speakers are fantastic. Haven't heard time in a few years now unfortunately.
What you say is correct around the fact that sometimes just a "few" Hz can be easily heard and significant in the low end due to the logarithmic nature of perception. That descent from a decent 40Hz to 30Hz with little roll-off should not be underestimated!
Hi arch, as you mentioned in your article, a sub has long-term value since hearing the lows stay strong while we lose gradually the high frequencies. :-(
ReplyDeleteI wrote previously about patching my 30-year-old 15’’ Velodyne sub’s foam surround that was slowly cracking, but now the whole thing gave up, making me see what a 2-3 Hz oscillation with a free 2-3 inch cone displacement would look like…ugly!
I know it is replaceable but the thing is so big and heavy that I rather decided to permanently unplug it and lean back to my (also 30 year old) B&W floor-standers’ woofers that go down to a solid 40Hz. At first, something seemed missing but I found the new balance satisfying in the long term with the music I listen to.
I also have a very effective Sonos sub mini so if I crave low bass I can use my Sonos Atmos system. Just for fun I played your BOOM demo on both systems, and while the Sonos hits lower notes, the sound is much more detailed when I cast it to my (also 30 year-old) Bryston amp driving the B&W speakers…
Nice Gilles,
DeleteAmazing how good "vintage" 30 year old gear can be eh? In the audiophile world of never-ending-latest-and-greatest amps, speakers, etc!
Hope you figure out what to do with that old Velodyne... Even if you need to hire some movers to get it out and send it to the local electronics recycle place, after 30 years, I trust it has served you very well!
I have KEF R500 floor standing speakers and 10 or 12 years ago I bought for them a small but quite capable REL Quake subwoofer. The addition of the sub brought my enjoyment of music to another, higher level.
ReplyDeleteMy audiophile buddy did not like initially the idea of using a sub even though I advised him to try it. But he was making all kinds of excuses that did not even make sense to me. Then, suddenly, one year ago, he bought a MJ Acoustics sub. Now he says that he had basically "wasted" 15 years of his audiophile life, because (his words) "music sounds so much better with the sub!".
I wonder what he will say when he finally matures, as an audiophile, enough to try active room correction with DSP and passive room correction with audio panels. Or crossfeed effect with his headphones.
Wow fgk,
DeleteThat's quite a "conversion" for your friend, realizing that he had "wasted" a decade and a half!
Better late than never and hopefully it reinvigorates his love of music listening to his favorite material again - perhaps for the first time with the lower octaves he might not have even known were present!
Send my congrats to your buddy! 🍻
In general on this blog, comments and discussions have almost always been civil, gentlemanly (we're almost all men obsessed about audiophilia after all). Occasionally I get a snarky remark but that's all good and it's fun to respond to those as well.
ReplyDeleteHere's a fun one I got in the E-mail:
"Let me guess… The next thing you’re going to say is that we also need the top octaves, too?
Let me tell you something, Johnny: low bass and high treble are overrated. You can live just fine with loudspeakers that go from 80Hz to 5kHz. What do you need all that extra music for anyway?
In fact, genius, you need to wise up and get one of those smart speakers. Maybe, with its AI, it’ll make you smart, too.
8 track tapes forever!"
LOL. I know that message is said in jest of course. But just to be clear about the high frequencies and in case anyone is wondering still, obviously the high end is important to the extent we can still hear those frequencies 😏. For us "mature" dudes, we'd be lucky to still have good hearing above 15kHz into middle age. It's only reasonable to be suspicious of our senior colleagues who still claim to have great hearing 15+kHz and apparently can still tell the difference between 48kHz and 96kHz hi-res music presumably because of some kind of beneficial ultrasonic effect (not to forget all that other stuff like power cables, minuscule picosecond jitter like this guy, etc.).
As discussed here years ago in "MUSINGS: Do we "need" those >20kHz ultrasonic frequencies for high-fidelity audio?", there's of course possible ultrasonic content in our recordings, but often the mic never really captured anything useful, often there's non-musical ultrasonic noise, and if we listen to DSD64/SACD, there can be quite a bit of elevated noise floor if unfiltered.
Enjoy the 8-tracks my friend! Vinyls are almost as good I think! 🙂
Hi Archimago, after experimenting a lot of years (40 years) with several set-up's i came down to earth with my Quad 2805's and 2 15-inch , and 2 12-inch closed subs randomly placed is my living-room. I did measure a lot with REW and by the end it turned out to be not that much what i could improve. I followed Earl Geddes his way of placing more that 1 subwoofer. And it works great for me. As a lover of english church-music with organ i think i could create a meaningfull atmosphere in my room.
ReplyDeleteAs i found out a lot of older recordings contain sub-bass. Until recent we could not hear them. Now i can.
Still the best experience for musiclovers and audiophiles is to go to life-concerts!
Nice system Douwe, "classic" Quads!
DeleteYou ain't messin' around with those subs and with 4 of them around, looks like you're doing well with filling out the room modes. Congrats on the system and I bet the organ music sounds complete!
Indeed, lots of good sub-bass out there to be found, even on some LPs (depending on how well the mastering was done and assuming not too steep high passing typically ~35Hz).
Yes, real-life "being there" is still best. 👍
Steve Guttenberg might have made a case against sub woofers for music in 2018, but your passing slightly derogatory reference to that article ignores the fact that he is a strong advocate of sub woofers for stereo systems. Many stereo pundits, eg Paul McGowan of PS Audio and Steve Guttenberg, have been recommending subwoofers for years. Paul McGowan is my favorite stereo pundit.
ReplyDeleteGreetings Martin,
DeleteWe all as audiophiles have our own take on things and I think it's okay to speak our minds about what we agree and disagree with. It is in these arguments and back-and-forth that we shape who we are, what we believe, and ultimately the "culture" of this hobby. This is why I try to be as thorough as I can to address over the years not just the technical objective data but foundationally the philosophies and psychologies we (I) might hold as audiophiles and try when I can to gather listening data (blind tests).
If we do a Google search on Guttenberg and subwoofers, that CNET article from 2018 still shows up high on the list for me and the title stands out as a strong declarative statement. This article was purposely written with another strong declarative title and in time, hopefully this declaration will be an increasingly popular one among audiophiles.
I would argue that if Guttenberg doesn't stand by that article any more, since he still writes for CNET, he should issue at least an addendum in that article to update readers on his current stance should it be significantly different; maybe provide a link to where he changed his viewpoints and what he advocates. This is the power of the Internet in keeping these documents "live" (while we're still alive to do it!). It would really only take a couple minutes I imagine!
I agree with some things Guttenberg and McGowan say but I find Guttenberg too superficial with little depth to his videos and articles (a general criticism of most subjective-only reviewers). Beyond general interest in new products he might be reviewing, or maybe music recommendations, there does not appear to be much to learn from him if one has been around the audiophile scene after maybe just a couple of years. Other viewpoints he had expressed like his take on dynamic range compression years ago I've had issues with as well. I guess he's somewhat entertaining.
As for McGowan, he has a few interesting but IMO incorrect/biased views on things. He perpetuates the typical myths that inhabit the "high end" like cables, power conditioners and such (some of these things he sells of course). He has this unusual affinity towards DSD and the stories around Gus Skinas and Ted Smith's FPGA DSD-resampled DACs when there's really no technical advantage here (again, he sells this stuff) has an air of the "when I was young" mythologies. The claims about all those firmware updates to his DACs significantly changing sound clearly hyped, and even with recent improvements, the noise floor remains an issue even with the recent PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream Mk II.
Many of his videos are likewise highly superficial, overly generalized, and IMO do not adequately address the questions - I wonder if the folks submitting questions were any clearer after his video answers. I understand where he's coming from though as a manufacturer and being part of the "high-end audio" space he inhabits. There is only so much "truth" he can be honest with so as not to upset the apple cart.
Meanwhile, back in New York, the influencers are setting up 36 inch subs to some effect: https://youtu.be/b3c5VqhzUkw
ReplyDeleteInteresting Daniel,
DeleteHad the video playing in the background while doing some E-mails.
No idea who this is. So, how do these speakers sound? Do we have any measurements?
Or is this more about old-skool asthetics and form over function? He talked about the Altec A2 (I think he called it 2A at ~42:30) that's mid-centered with reduce bass/treble and the use of subs (~47:30). I wonder how the subs integrate in that system - seems he's using DSP.
Anyhow, he uses the term "practice" (as in "my practice") a lot I guess as a reference to development of some kind of skill in his preferred art form. If the esthetic appeals to his customers, then great. Not sure what that means when it comes to sound quality though.
Too bad I didn't know about this. I guess might have been able to pay the room a visit back in May in SoHo to hear the speakers + flea-watt tube amps + vinyl.
I very much doubt that there will ever be any meaningful measurements performed on this equipment. I was bopping around SOHO with visiting friends (don't really go there unless I've visitors) when we happened across his store front - lots of logo'ed t-shirts & caps, books and mags - not much in the way of audio. The room was suboptimal, the music sounded fine but nothing out of the ordinary (coaxial driver w/o subs) and given the rents in that part of town I'm very curious about his business model. I'm on his feed and may check out his next show if convenient.
Delete"Practice" and "journey" are terms carried over from yoga practitioners.
He spends a fair bit of time defending his "creative practice" citing such luminaries as Virgil Abloh (Louis Vuitton). Audio as high fashion, collabs, with a good dose of mysticism and humility (authenticy being THE coin of the realm in influencer circles).
Seems fitting somehow that Darko refers to this as an "interview" when it is most definitively not.
Thanks for the discussion Daniel,
DeleteDefinitely makes a lot of sense. I think even a simple in-room frequency response of that system would be interesting to see what kind of tuning/tonality Mr. Turnbull is after, even though I agree with you it'd be highly unlikely to see any more detailed measurements for an art installation like this!
We make money where we can and good luck to OJAS I guess for their collaborations with Denon and Klipsch.
Having said this, as a doctor who sees real people with real problems and I believe understand the value of money, this kind of thing I find a bit silly and vain. Interesting that he takes inspiration from Virgil Abloh (LV men's wear collection designer eh?). I guess it's "interesting" that he takes technological/science/engineered products and converts them to pieces of "art". Personally, I do not see value in whatever creative practices he seems to be aspiring to here with anachronistic, sentimental, semi-Japanese-inspired, bits thrown together. Since we all have different preferences, I guess anything can be "authentic"; these days we can even ask an AI to put together idiosyncratic bits, make it our own, and call it our authentic expression, and nobody would know the difference.
I agree, the video doesn't seem to be any kind of interview. Certainly we're not seeing any hard questions here or apparent desire to dig deep into his feelings, psychological explorations, or even just practical intellectual discussions around the "utilitarian" performance of the designs as objects that produce sound (other than that the Denon cartridge is just the regular cartridge with a see-thru shell).
BTW, I see that the Klipsch x OJAS K-01 speakers had an asking price of $8500/pair with stands and 100 were made for the exotic effect.
As for the Denon x OJAS DL-103o, we can buy the identical standard Denon DL-103R on Amazon for <$500. And this is selling for almost $800 for the translucent shell and again, the air of exoticism/artistry? Indeed, not sure about that business model selling merch like this and incense cones.
BTW: I saw that statement of "The Nature of Sound" on the OJAS website and put in an Addendum at the end of the article. Fascinating New Ageism in audio which clearly resonates with Daniel's comment about Turnbull's language perhaps originating with yoga practitioners.
DeleteHi,
DeleteI had never heard of OJAS before. After having read your comments and visited his homepage I believe this is a very new age approach to audio reproduction and appreciation of sound. Blending science with art and leaning towards concepts like holistic audio design and psychoacoustics. Not concerned with accurate reproduction but instead enveloping the listener in some sort of transcendental musical experience. This probably explains his fixation with low wattage tube amplifiers and horn loaded sensitive speakers. He wants music to be felt more than heard. I did get snake oil vibes when I checked out his speaker wires. Here he claims that sound is a vibration of ether and air. Ether? That concept was debunked over a hundred years ago.
No, this is either someone out of touch with reality or cleverly exploiting music lovers with a penchant for the mystical. Wrap it in fashion and make it exclusive by slapping on high prices.
I haven't heard Ojas speakers before, and this is the first time I've come across Ojas. My impression from their website is that their marketing seems a bit silly, and the speakers look ugly. I think there's nothing wrong with fantasy. If you find the speakers attractive and attribute superpowers to them, there's no harm in that. Placebos can be very effective.
DeleteSo true. Reminds me of that joke. "A guy goes to the doctor.
DeleteThe doctor informs him that he was given a placebo. The guy asks,
“What’s a placebo?”
The doctor replies,
“It’s better if I don’t tell you.”
Yup, placebos can work very well with some folks. And if belief in mysticism around their audio gear gives them joy, then so be it and I hope they have a great quality of life.
DeleteThinking about the business model and the cost of a showroom like this in Manhattan as Daniel alluded to suggests that Ojas must be drawing from some deep pockets to do this art/hobby/DIY stuff. Storefront and online sales unlikely to cover the rent!
I'm guessing the speakers and being an audiophile are part of his job as a social media star. Do social media stars make money by publicizing an 'authentic life' as a brand for others to buy into? Are they themselves simply fictional characters designed to sell things? The more views and followers they have, the more valuable they become as mascots for brands buying advertisements. could this be the source of the money.
DeleteGood question Dan.
DeleteI guess humans have always looked for "idols" or "stars". There's certainly more than a bit of irony in it all. What is "authentic" any more if at a significant level the act itself becomes a performance for others to see rather than genuinely of and for the self?
I think in his "interview" video, Turnbull talked about being enamored with DIY audio (especially within the Japanese cultural context). But has the heart of DIY audio really been captured in the form of these boxes and old-skool drivers? Has it been honored in the see-thru cartridge obviously being sold at a profit? Or are these systems he makes and shows off just a performative activity that evokes nothing more than a caricature of the DIY spirit which I believe is much more about experimentation, technical knowledge, individual curiosity, than esthetics? Where are all the left over wires and connectors in his art exhibits? Where is the test bench with soldering iron? Where is the technical "mess", components, meters, that is at the heart of any DIY audiophile's home?
I dunno, there's almost a "cultural misappropriation" or even "stolen valor" to all this in my mind when influencers try to take true identities and commercialize it in a stylized, sanitized form.
In the event anyone is interested here's a shorter piece featuring OJAS where he advocates for a coffee break in the event your sound system is not performing up to par. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=100GRHueICI
DeleteNothing like a good 'ol coffee break to clear the mind 🤔.
DeleteNotice yet again, the image of guy who assembles and disassembles bits and pieces in an orderly way. No meters to be found (other than VU meters). No stray wires or components other than well-laid-out phono cartridges and close-up shots of stuff in hand. Demonstration of speaker cones moving using a 9V battery (no oscilloscopes or variable power supplies). Superficial talk about sound waves. Stacks of what looks like pristine Japanese audio magazines in one of the shots (presumably for sale).
Does he honestly think that the art and science of audio reproduction started and stopped with Western Electric in the early 20th Century? Maybe he does - or at least that's his thing for the sake of creating the image and products. And the idea of hi-fi as "wellness products".
Carry on...
Hi, Arch. I have a pair of LS 50 Metas, and have paired them with a pair of OG SVS SB 2000's. I use Dirac DLBC which both sets the crossover and integrates the subs. I keep each sub within 24" of the LS 50 Meta, and a cross over at 150 hz to take strain off the 5 in midrange. And they sound just great. I use an Octo DAC 8 Pro DAC (8 channels), so each speaker has its own channel, and together with the DLBC and the uBacch for Windows, I seem to be getting superb sound, though I don't play anything a head banging levels. But then again, when something sound this nice, why would I want to?
ReplyDeleteThat's a neat system Phoenix!
DeleteA pair of good quality subs reasonably co-located with your LS50 Metas definitely will work well.
Yeah, personally I try to avoid head banging these days - whether along with the music or just out of frustration 😁.
Hi, amigo. I have a suggestion I'd be interested in reading. I'd like to read a full blog post on your thoughts about social media stars and whether they are genuine or if they create their characters.
ReplyDeleteNice one Dan.
DeleteI'll think about it and consider if I have any material 🤔. Huge topic, right? And like most big topics, there will be a gradient.
All I can say for now is that the whole Ojas vibe seems like a pretentious hipster upper-middle-class thing that doesn't seem to as much be about a celebration of DIY high-fidelity as it is about the caricature of one, twisted "artistically" and "spiritually" to create attention and make money. Heck, anyone who puts so much emphasis on vinyl playback isn't really about truly achieving high-fidelity in the 21st Century IMO.