Saturday, 20 July 2024

SUMMER MUSINGS: On the perils of subjective opinions in High-End Audio (dCS v. GoldenSound).

Every once awhile here in audiophile-land we see our share of drama.

There was MoFiGate a couple years back when vinyl collectors panicked about DSD256 data corrupting their precious analog remasters, Tekton (Eric Alexander) v. Erin recently due to legal threats for calling into question a speaker design, we've seen silly hyped Pono/Neil Young claims a decade ago, and of course the painfully prolonged MQA episode which was just a mess (as summarized years ago).

Well, in the last week we have something a bit different; the dCS v. GoldenSound lawsuit threat due to unhappiness about a YouTube DAC review from late 2021. I'm not going to rehash the stuff here because there were clearly many missteps in dCS's communications as explained in GoldenSound's video and here's the dCS response where the company "fully acknowledge that some of the emails shared by GoldenSound were unacceptable and we addressed and acknowledged this in subsequent communications".

I trust they'll figure it out between the various players on the two sides. As with the domestic conflicts of others, I'm not particularly interested in the details as to who said what unless personally involved. Likewise, some of the technical details regarding the external clock, DSD resampling, seem to be side distractions from the concerns around the review; no need to spend time with these minor digressions.

Instead, I was more curious about that original dCS Bart贸k DAC/headphone amp YouTube review by GoldenSound that came out on December 31, 2021. What was it that made dCS or their representatives so upset? Is there something about the review itself we can/should learn from?

For those who have not seen it, here it is:

As you're perhaps processing what was said in the video, let me lay down a few of my beliefs; where I'm coming from as an audiophile hobbyist who is aiming for high-fidelity audio reproduction as the ultimate goal:

1. I'm all for the "little guy" and I would consider my blog and writings within this cohort of indie audiophile writers/reviewers. But that doesn't mean I believe the little guy is always right (in fact, I believe many independent opinions are likely wrong). While we have the right to free speech, we still need to be prudent about what to say and when, depending on our confidence that the comments can be backed up by facts.

Internet hobbyists and participants in discussion forums probably have a bias towards supporting David over Goliath which is usually not a bad thing since thoughtful dissenting voices probably have a tendency to be drowned out by larger financial interests and can benefit from a bit more grass-roots support.

2. For a company like dCS to be threatening a lawsuit to shut the little guy down might be necessary I suppose, but only as a last resort. Just as we have the right to free speech in liberal democracies, companies can also exercise their rights in the court of law if claims are wild, crazy, dangerous, or otherwise burdensomely damaging. But I would imagine this is only if all avenues of reasonable communications have been expended and only in the most severe cases of defamation which I do not believed happened with GoldenSound's review. This has been a poor public relations move for dCS.

When corporations use lawsuits to threaten others into silence, some jurisdictions have anti-SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation) laws that help the little guy shut down such abusive use of the legal system. Since dCS and GoldenSound (GS) are in the UK, it would be interesting to know what rights GS could have used to defend himself if needed.

I trust that the above 2 points are straight forward and presumably most of us would be in agreement.

Looking beyond the David v. Goliath analogy and unnecessary legal threats, when it comes to the tension between the two parties, I don't think this conflict is as clear-cut in terms of whether GS should have said the things he said, or that dCS should not be rightfully unhappy about the video review. To me, this is a more nuanced conflict than the charges against MQA and that company's misrepresentations. This situation is also not as blatantly ridiculous as Tekton's threats against Erin's Audio Corner when Erin actually liked the sound of the speakers but reported on limitations of the design based on objective results.

In this case:

3. I believe GoldenSound's YouTube review of the ~US$15,000 dCS Bart贸k is an example of basically a subjective process with token objective measurements thrown in, and ultimately comes across as dissonant. This is perilous practice.

You see, historically, mainstream audiophile reviews (such as in Stereophile) separate the typically longer multipage subjective assessment and the objective results sidebar. I don't read Hi-Fi News enough to be sure, but I think they also do similar "Review" and "Lab" sections done by different authors. Typically, GoldenEarReviewer will inventively write about how much he loved the sound of Loudspeaker X and will at least say some nice things about it that the company would be pleased by (often giving thanks for the nice words in the Manufacturer's Comment if published). However, the author of the objective test portion (like John Atkinson of Stereophile) might find frequency irregularities, box resonances or difficult impedances and conclude: "I was surprised by the results because GoldenEarReviewer did not hear the measurable strong dip in the midrange of Loudspeaker X and liked it... Go listen for yourself."

So if ever questioned about the objective deficits, the subjective reviewer can easily plausibly deny hearing any issues "at my listening level, with my equipment, my music, my room, and my ears" with no other tools for reference, unaware of what the objective tester found.

With that, even though not ideal, everyone's probably somewhat accepting. The manufacturer can take pride that GoldenEarReviewer said some nice things they can now quote in their upcoming advertisements and ignore Atkinson's report. If there are technical faults, the more-objective reader might want to heed Atkinson's warning and complain that GoldenEarReviewer's ears are lacking in the comments section, then either look elsewhere or try it out at home to make sure the skepticism is unwarranted before purchasing. It's all predictable and everyone has learned what to do.

The weird thing about this review (and maybe others he makes?) is that GoldenSound tries to cover both subjective and objective bases; but doesn't quite succeed. He spends good money on the Audio Precision APx555 gear (probably something like $30k), he posts the results online for the dCS, he speaks about it at 4:55 in the video with a graphic reference, but explains the results as only "this unit's working fine, it's measuring as expected". He also acknowledges that the results are consistent with Stereophile's measurements.

However, if you watch the video from start to end, there's an uneasy dissonance to the review when he talks about the DAC's sound quality in a way that highly contradicts the objective performance data, and to me is simply not believable. Here are some of his negative claims about the Bart贸k's performance:

- "Dull, really dull". "It sounds like they've tried to make something really refined and hi-fi and gone too far. And as a result it's become smooth, real smooth, too smooth." (6:05 - love the Emmy-winning dramatic vocal intonation and hand gesturing here! 馃ぃ)

- "This sounds like the Chord Qutest but with better sound stage. The Qutest is 10% of the price of the Bartok. The Bartok doesn't improve on the resolution of the Qutest..." (6:40)

- "Perhaps the most egregious example... is I can play Skrillex loud and it's not even fatiguing" on Sennheiser HD800S headphones. "That just shouldn't happen." (7:10)

 - "Unfortunately this isn't just limited to the treble though, this is something that's present across the whole frequency range, everything just sounds a little bit too soft. Leading edges are just hidden... And so in 'AOK' by Tai Verdes, the drum kit just sounds blunted... muffled... like there's a pillow between you and the drums... Leading edges of the guitar are kind of hidden away... Initial strum just sounds way too quiet." (7:55)

-  "This I think is really going a step too far. It is too smoothed over. It is not a slightly laid back DAC, it's a *really* laid back DAC." (9:18)

- "No amount of changing digital sources, no amount of upsampling, no amount of changing the configuration internally, has fixed the fact that this is really soft - that it just sounds really really laid back." (10:20)

- "It always just sounds too soft. It just doesn't deserve this price tag, it does not sound good enough to me." (10:45)

- Soundstage is smaller that Chord DAVE and HoloAudio May supposedly. But the device is a "low energy sounding DAC, it's very relaxing to listen to, but I'm not sure I want to be quite that relaxed or chilled out all the time". (12:15)

- Using "Moth To A Flame" (Swedish House Mafia & The Weeknd): "In energetic electronic tracks like this, this DAC does not do very well. It just sounds very flat, it sounds very dull..." (12:30)

[As an aside, I noticed while going through this video, GoldenSound seems to promote stuff like Digital-to-Digital conversion hardware as maybe improving audible jitter and provide better upsampling as if these change the sound significantly. Then there are videos with click-bait titles like "Why you can't trust audio measurements" which presents nothing someone with experience doing measurements would not already be well aware of. IMO, a video about "why you can't trust subjective audio reviewers" probably would have vastly more information to show.]

So guys and gals, what he's saying then is that he has a US$15,000 DAC here which measures very well across multiple tests and domains (certainly within the audible frequencies). It has a few digital filter options, all capable of reproducing an impulse with no hint of dynamic or temporal anomaly as shown in Stereophile (what leading edge issues? output voltage good, what's this "softness"?). Frequency response is flat with no hint of high-frequency dips (what dullness?). Very low noise floor. Channel balance looks excellent with low crosstalk (should be good for soundstage, dependent much more on the speakers/headphones/room, right?). Distortions extremely low (not sure if anyone looked at intersample overs on this unit?). Basically no jitter anomaly to worry about.

And yet GoldenSound hears all kinds of subjective issues including "dullness", a "laid back" sound, "low energy", etc.? This, friends, is Golden Earism at its finest or worst depending on how you view the value of these subjective descriptions! In summary, these supposedly audible effects then are why:

"There's nothing here which is standing out to me as this is it's best feature... Everything is either not great or just okay." (14:30)

"The only time I would go for this is if you are explicitly looking for something very laid back, very soft, and that's your thing. Other than that, give this a miss." (15:12)

While I can appreciate but do not promote luxury High-End DACs, are you really sure, GoldenSound, that your words reflect a reasonable assessment of the sound quality? Are you sure these things you supposedly hear in sighted listening are the fault of the DAC? Are you sure that you are not biased in some way? If this DAC sounds so bad, why don't you prove it? Why not use that Audio Precision as a tool with much higher frequency accuracy, dynamic range, and temporal resolution than human ears to show us what's wrong here; why did you buy the AP if not intending to use it as a tool to explain anomalies and satisfy curiosities like the extreme differences between what was measured, and what you reportedly heard?

Not only would evidence improve the credibility of what you're able to hear, but it would also educate fellow audiophiles and demonstrate to dCS that their sound quality is subpar. Otherwise, as it stands, this review is nothing more than multiple vague subjective gripes that add nothing to our understanding. Even worse, by not being able to rationally integrate the objective data while expressing such dramatic subjective perceptions, you've made it confusing for viewers who might know a thing or two about objective-subjective correlations in DAC performance.

Imagine if you're a hi-end car reviewer and got into a Ferrari 296 for a drive. You've been given Car And Driver's data on acceleration, you've also personally measured an impressive acceleration from 0-60mph in 2.4 seconds at the track. After driving it for awhile, you publish your review, and surprisingly based apparently only on subjective "feel", you tell everyone on YouTube that this is a slow car, there's no excitement to the ride, no kick when you floor the accelerator, too smooth like you were driving a luxury sedan rather than a hi-end sports car. How do we think Ferrari would feel about such a review? Isn't this in a way what effectively just happened?!

Ferrari would not care because obviously the reviewer has lost touch with reality, everyone would have a good laugh, and then ignore the guy; his reviewing days are over. The problem with the audio "High End" though is that it's a small industry served by a few publications, and for decades, hobbyists have been fed inconsistent subjective nonsense and sold snake oil to the point that almost any subjective opinion seems plausible. With some financial resources (or loans), anyone can spend big money to acquire gear, start a YouTube channel (like this guy) and the relatively few audiophiles excited by this stuff will check out the insane products asking ridiculous MSRPs (like this) or sell his "experience" to create a client system sounding like it's marred by poor room acoustics. This is the nature of audiophile YouTube channels these days.

I don't know how many times the Bart贸k video review was watched when dCS became concerned, but with >60k views currently, it would not be surprising to hear that many interested in buying this DAC would have viewed it and felt a bit concerned about the opinions expressed by a man who presents himself as simultaneously having "golden ears" capable of hearing significant anomalies and who poses as one who has fully measured with his Audio Precision gear!



Pick an appropriate lane, do things right, and do it well.

If it's subjective reviewing you're doing, then you can basically say whatever you want because this kind of reviewing is all testimonial, opinion-based anyways. We all know this. IMO this is a less credible tier when it comes to sound quality assessment because you'll always find different opinions as discussed a decade ago. To me, subjective reviews can be good to ascertain look-and-feel, notable features, convenience, quality of workmanship, but unless similar sonic impressions are supported by multiple reasonable reviewers, by themselves, each reviewer's opinion has little significance.

A hi-fi audio reviewer is not judging art (unlike say restaurant/food, music, movie critics, or even oenophiles judging the taste of wine); hi-fi audio sound quality at its core is transparency which is not about added taste, but ultimately finding a system achieving Zen-like purity of absence.

There are extremely subjective guys who just openly admit that they embrace fantasy - check out this fellow's faith-based, "magic", child-like belief system that "should be nurtured". He's obviously a sales person and biased towards selling Playback Designs DACs, Fischer & Fischer speakers, giving Daniel Hertz stuff air time, and seems to think this stuff makes sense. How about this audiophile reviewer who also runs his paranormal channel communicating with spirit families in cemeteries using a phone app? Fascinating stuff! Hours of entertainment! 馃槺

If it's objective testing, then your standards are higher. One cannot just go around making up flowery prose like a subjective reviewer as if that is equivalent to the data one measures. Use technically defined language, and if you can't, at least try to break it down into the world of scientific principles. Make sure to double check on the measurements. If there are anomalies found, make sure to chase them down to confirm before publication. Know that others will also be evaluating and could produce counter-evidence which is fine and objective consensus can ultimately be found. Be curious because all that we hear can already be explained by detecting the physical electrical or acoustic properties. The audio products we buy are all based on mature scientific principles even if how our minds perceive still holds some mystery in the neuroscience realm.

Since terminology is well defined and concepts can typically be numerically expressed, collaboration with other technically-minded audiophiles can often be done. The measurement-based results can expand understanding, move high-fidelity reproduction forward, and can expose nonsensical scam products for what they are.

If you want to do both - writing reviews with subjective impressions and objective testing - then express your understanding with internal consistency. GoldenSound seems to be presenting himself as someone who is capable in this way; this is admirable and I think more reviewers should be encouraged to do this. But the standards need to be higher if something does not make sense. If you're reviewing a Ferrari and every measurement says you should be feeling some g-forces and you don't, well, you should be checking your own sensory system first before complaining about the car on YouTube!

And so it is with this dCS Bart贸k review. As a viewer, I cannot believe the deficits GS claim to hear as presented in the video because the objective evidence literally is screaming at us that his subjective claims are suspect wrong. A reviewer who is adept at objective analysis needs to give us evidence - maybe give us a hi-res AMPT-like recording or a sample of the anomaly (I've tried to do this sometimes) to allow the audience to gauge for themselves - don't tell me what you heard, show me if it's a big deal. Objectivity applies to everyone and we should be able to hear the "pillow between you and the drums" for example if that's what you're going to claim.

At best, the sound quality assessment in this review is woefully incomplete and more evidence needed to be presented before making these severely critical remarks about the product. At worst, this is just another ego-driven Golden Ear strutting his "skillz", consciously or unconsciously putting out a controversial video to make a mark as an "influencer" through clicks.

I don't know if people who buy dCS equipment would care about YouTube reviews, but if I were dCS, I'd understandably be annoyed if I felt that this review might have had a negative impact on sales or reputation. Regardless, dCS should still have communicated their concerns better, and threatening a lawsuit around what amounts to subjective opinion (even with GS displaying objective pretensions) was not the wisest move.

To end, I find it fascinating when reviewers like GoldenSound express the intent of their subjective opinions in ways like this:

"It's my job to try and tell you how something sounds - to describe it as accurately and thoroughly as I can so that you can make a decision for yourself, whether it's up your alley." (13:08)

Seriously GS, do you think you've done anyone a service with this dCS video? Was this review actually "accurate" (and consistent with other listeners' experience)? If it is accurate, by what standard - or is it just "accurate" for yourself? Apparently, your accuracy is not consistent with the measurements from your AP machine, right? Why not? Were you able to give dCS any concrete suggestions to improve the product's sound quality by the way?

It's easy for any subjective reviewer to claim he "loves" a product whether it's objectively any good, and by the same token, anyone can easily say how "poor" a product sounds with all the creativity and displeasing prose one can conjure up (or just ask ChatGPT for some colorful descriptions). Just as "respected" and well-known reviewers could virally advertise a product to the masses on YouTube these days, so too the magnification of the obverse can powerfully tarnish the reputation of a company's product. As audiophiles and as an Industry, to base reviews just on subjective opinions, and to put trust in testimonies only, has always been a perilous path for products designed through science and engineering.

Given that the dCS review was published in December 2021, I certainly hope GoldenSound's subsequent videos utilizing and incorporating his AP machine's data have improved over the years.

Disclosure: I have heard the dCS Bart贸k at one of the audio shows. From a sound quality angle paired with Audeze headphones, I certainly did not hear an issue with 'dullness'.

--------------------


I'm enjoying Alphaville's first album Forever Young, released as a 40th Anniversary Bluray this weekend (1984, DR13 when converted as 7.1 24/48 TrueHD). I was blown away by this album in the late '80s when I started listening to music as a teen and to this day consider this a synthpop masterpiece. As audiophiles, all these years we've been resold "remastered" albums, many of which just sound different because of minor EQ tweaks, or worse, loud dynamic range compression to the point of audible distortion in many cases (no thanks to mainstream magazines for not highlighting the issue).

These multichannel remixes of favorite albums are different and truly change the immersive experience in meaningful directions that can expand creative freedoms. Generally, I have no interest in remastered 2-channel efforts unless they're actually improving dynamic range (and even less interest in remastered LPs). But well-done multichannel remixes, these could certainly be of interest in providing new musical experiences!

Friends, I hope you're all having a great July and enjoying the music.

43 comments:

  1. Chalk this up as a rare difference of opinion for me.

    I appreciate GoldenSound for his solid work on MQA (similar to what you did, only his went viral). And despite the clickbait, he does a better job than anyone I know for making the case for room for subjectivity in audio reviews.

    I'm still an objectivist at heart, and his subjective opinion of Bartok means nothing to me. Especially since I've proven to myself (using your tests and my own) that I'm not all that discriminating, I would expect the Bartok to sound to my ears exactly like my Topping D10S. Neither too soft or too smooth, nor providing whatever "magic" a $10,000+ DAC is supposed to bring to the table.

    But dCS lives by the subjective review. An objective review would show similar performance to a Topping E30 II Lite, and that would be end of it. And if you live by the subjective review, you should be expected to die by it as well.

    I reject the premise that just because Cameron publishes objective results, that means that he can only provide positive subjective reviews. I'm not convinced that subjective experience brings anything to table, but it's an unalloyed negative when not used in the context of rigorous blind testing. But those are my biases and beliefs.

    If I believed that sighted subjective testing had merit, that wouldn't foreclose the value of objective testing. Under that mental model, objective testing would easily be the last word regarding noise, but more subjective aspects such as soundstage and imaging would be in the ambit of subjective evaluation. And the case could be made that the perception of tonality, harshness, smoothness, is not entirely encompassed by FR graphs, THD, and IMD. *I* wouldn't make that case, but it's par for the course in subjective circles.

    My rough probability breakdown is that Cameron's subjective criticism is 5% likely correct, 15% likely cynical, and 80% likely delusional. This look bad, but I'd actually trust his subjective criticism over just about any other subjective reviewer. I don't see why he should be held to a higher standard than a Stereophile or TAS subjective reviewer.

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    1. Greetings Neil,
      Well, I hope you're right about Cameron's track record outside of this review. In the clinical world, delusional disorders are hard to treat so if his subjective criticism is "80% likely delusional", then we need to be careful! To be honest I trust nobody these days about the subjective sound quality in DAC reviews 馃槈.

      DACs are quite easy to test, easy to measure and looking under the hood at the data of the recent online blind test and testing with fellow audiophiles over the years, for me when it comes to DACs, the objective data is likely the final word once we confirm that there are no odd issues like impedance mismatch, poor filters (like MQA-level stuff) and volume match.

      I know this will not make subjective hardware audiophiles happy, nor would companies be pleased that maybe... Just maybe... Modern DACs are more than good enough even though objective accuracy might improve with each generation (I suspect this has plateaued). We all need to move on to our speakers, rooms, and headphones for meaningful improvements in sound quality.

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    2. "I know this will not make subjective hardware audiophiles happy, nor would companies be pleased that maybe... Just maybe... Modern DACs are more than good enough even though objective accuracy might improve with each generation (I suspect this has plateaued)." I'm on board with this view based on doing the work replicating your testing Arch. I've spent a lot of time measuring different DACs, using them in my main system and headphone setups. It really raised my awareness and understanding. Lots of times I thought I could hear differences when A/B testing but each time I would go back and listen again it became apparent that I hadn't heard what I thought I heard. Using different DACs over long periods of time clearly demonstrated that they are not a factor in my listening enjoyment. There are some that I like better than others but they don't sound different to me.

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    3. Great that you've done extensive testing as well Doug with both listening and measurements.

      While I totally appreciate that audiophiles can have subjective preferences around which DAC looks better, have nicer form factor for our equipment rack/desk, has more useful features, have nice smooth knobs to adjust volume, some have better displays/VU meters, broader range of digital inputs, etc.

      Sound quality is another thing altogether... More often than not, like yourself, even when I think I hear a "big" difference, quickly switching and listening again shows me that I was not specifically paying attention and what I though I heard uniquely with the other device was there all along.

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    4. "5% likely correct"? How? Literally, *how* could this device truly output 'soft' or 'dull' audio compared to devices that measure as well? Propose a mechanism.

      Disclosure: to me, Goldensound and his ilk are clowns. So are any buyers of these $10K DACs who believe they are going to sound different from /better than much cheaper DACs that measure as well *in the audible range*. If your'e buying it as audio jewelry/status symbolism, sure, go for it, but be honest about it.

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    5. My proposed mechanism is noise modulation. The same reason that DSD sounds 'soft'.

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    6. '"5% likely correct"? How? Literally, *how* could this device truly output 'soft' or 'dull' audio compared to devices that measure as well? Propose a mechanism.'

      There's no mechanism that I can think of. By how my mental model of how current translates to sound, GS's measurements tell the whole picture and do not account for his subjective impressions. But I do not have 100% confidence in my mental model. IMO, objectivists such as myself still have some holes bridging the theory to empirical demonstrations of inaudibility, Archimago's yeoman efforts notwithstanding.

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  2. Hi Arch, this is the whole "Princes and the Pea" thing. It's the narrative "Golden Eared" audiophiles push incessantly: That there "...are more things in heaven and on Earth than are dreamed of in your APx555 and Klippel measurement, Horatio."

    And Cameron can hear every one of them! Sure.

    Whether he should be sued for that is another matter. All of these high end companies promote the idea that they have some special sauce that's undetectable by an EE's conventional measurement tools. So when a true believer claims he tastes the sauce and it's not to his liking, he gets sued? No, I don't think it ought to work that way. When somebody creates an imaginary castle in the air and invites everyone in for a look inside. and one of them criticizes the imaginary tapesties hanging on the wall, you don't take a real life, honest to god, forged stainless steel sword and run him through with it.

    I hear dCS actually fired or reassigned whoever sent Cameron this ridiculous threat and have dropped the suit. A good move on their part (finally) since it would have undoubtedly been thrown out of court forthwith, and would have provided Cam with ample grounds for a countersuit.

    In any case, is it any real matter? Who in their right mind is going to pay $15 K USD for a DAC when today one every bit as good with all the same inputs and outputs can be purchased from Topping, SMSL, Schiit, or Khadas for at most $200. If I had an elderly parent and they bought a dCS DAC, I would take up a petition in court for a conservatorship for them. I really would. That's how brain damaged an act it would be to buy anything from dCS in the first place.

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    1. As usual, straight to the point Phoenix, 馃ぃ
      So much of audiophilia is selling fantasies isn't it? But I guess it works for many companies and all kinds of industries: lots of money expended in alternative health, supplements, cosmetics, fashion...

      Hope you don't have to worry about going to court for that conservatorship any time soon... Or ever. 馃槵

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    2. Yeah, especially when considering the AD/DA performance of recording studio gear used to make the music is easily worse than the current cheap breed of DACs with >120dB SINAD. Then it goes to transducers that at best goes down to -70dB in THD, typically only -40dB.

      Pretty funny to see these audio emperors defending their indefensible moats with their lack of clothes.

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  3. Greetings from HOT Las Vegas where we're boiling at over 105F today, Arch!

    Thanks for the deep article as I sit in front of the AC. I've been reading and watching videos on this topic over the last week - plays out like a Netflix drama for middle-aged audio geeks. Interesting stuff watching how crowds think and whether people actually think deeply about this past the headlines of "big company wants to sue little guy".

    Great that there are audiophiles like you who actually think this through and verbalize the issues. Funny how GS reached out to Amir probably because he's afraid of the ASR crowd not getting on board with his plea. In fact, *you* are the peer-review he should have reached out to, and *this* was the peer-review he should have received before putting out the video.

    Thanks for all the amazing work, and keeping it real!
    J

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    1. Hey J,
      That's >40°C; yeah, I'd be by the AC as well. The last time that happened up here in Vancouver was the 2021 heat dome that caused many deaths; clearly we're not used to temperature number like that in these parts.

      LOL. Thanks for the confidence. Not sure I'd want to peer-review anyone but will say what's gotta be said in this silly, crazy, but still enjoyable (for the most part) hobby! 馃

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  4. Hej Arch,
    I wonder why it took dCS so long to vent their frustrations over Camerons review. I find it unlikely they were unaware of his YouTube channel considering the amount of attention his take on MQA garnered. As regards his subjective take on the DAC I agree that it makes little sense that he experienced such disparity compared to his objective findings. We can forever speculate as to the why, but it is interesting that several reviewers have not found it to be either dull, bland or muffled.
    Anyway, dCS have since issued an apology and hopefully this matter is now resolved.
    https://dcs.community/t/goldensound-headphones-com-dcs-an-update/6740
    Enjoy your summer!
    Cheers
    Mike

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    1. Interesting Mike,

      For readers' convenience, here's the link to the July 16th apology message.

      Clearly they were monitoring the situation over the years based on the apology letter. Who knows what triggered things in May to escalate the issue to a legal threat. I can imagine a company meeting where they're looking at quarterly reports, sales numbers, and mention of the negative video came up again maybe?

      Very fair that they've issued an apology and offered the tour and even the free Lina system "peace offering". In terms of optics, I don't know how this looks though if the offer is accepted and we see it as the new "reference" by GS going forward given the obvious 'potential' for bias. An offer of cutting a cheque as a mea culpa to cover his "pain and suffering" at the tour towards anything he wants probably would have been seen as exerting less company influence towards an independent reviewer.

      To be honest, I don't think dCS needed to panic. They've been around for decades so it's not likely this would have killed the company unless financially things are in a bad place already! So someone in the company made a slip up and threatened a YouTube guy and they realized they needed to back off and offer an apology with an olive branch which they did quickly.

      The way I see it, once the review video is brought to the community's attention, I think many audiophiles would have realized that the review was of poor quality anyways, and that dCS is entitled to have concerns about unwarranted negative sentiment.

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  5. What's your hypotheis Arch for GS's subjective remarks about the Bartok's sound? That it sounds fine but GS is lying? Or that GS is subject to a certain kind of perceptual bias that would go away if he didn't know the identity of the box he was testing?

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    1. I don't think GS is lying as in deliberate lying to get views.
      It is unknown why he perceived the Bartok the way he did and one can only guess what the reason was. I reckon it was his opinion at that time.

      I suppose Cameron (GS) is either trying to please both the subjective crowd and measurement crowd. He failed to link measured performance with what he subjectively perceived.
      If he had the ABX box at that time and would have used it the review might have been different. All speculation.

      Let's hope he will do better in the future.

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    2. Indeed, who know eh?

      To me it's all a bit weird. I can't help though but think of maybe him wanting to inhabit some kind of niche as the "reviewer who owns an AP and knows all the numbers but remains 'our' subjective leaning guy who shows the world that subjective listening is superior."

      That's the kind of vibe I get from him when he tries to confidently tell us that DAC A clearly has better soundstage, DAC B is the one with awesome timbre, DAC C has that "oh so sweet" smooth decay, and DAC D gives us better attack on the drums, etc...

      He's free to do that of course, his channel, free speech and all. But I think it's all mostly nonsense. As per this review, I believe that he couldn't even get the Bartok's subjective-objective correlation anywhere near correct IMO, and for most of this 16 minute review just compounded on what would have been unbelievable even if he just said it a couple of times!

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    3. Yep, that's how I see this too.
      To be fair to Cameron and his GS channel he seems to be moving a bit to the more objective side, has a hardware ABX tester (but does not seem to use it) and is involved with some guys (Headphones.com) that try to steer him in a more objective direction.
      Dunno if they can beat the subjective babble out of him though :-)

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  6. I think the critical fact is that subjective reviewers are _not_ describing how a piece of equipment “sounds”. They’re describing their own particular mental state at the time they were listening to it. Now obviously music can affect your mental state, but so can many other factors. The reference I usually dig out to illustrate this comes from Steve Guttenberg, who is not generally regarded as a die-hard objectivist:
    https://www.stereophile.com/content/magic-moment
    The latest Stereophile even features Herb Reichert admitting to a similar effect, “At AXPONA 2024, I noticed a direct relationship between my perception of a room’s sound quality, the nature of the products being demonstrated, and my feelings
    about the presentation and the presenter ….When I felt annoyed or bored, I scanned for sound quality issues as I skulked to the door.”

    Subjective impressions about a piece of equipment are, surprise surprise, _subjective_, and the most important factor is the subject him or herself.

    Unfortunately these bouts of unguarded self-insight in the press tend to be all too few.

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    1. Thanks Charles for pointing this out. The Guttenberg "This Magic Moment" article is certainly interesting! I can appreciate his concluding paragraph:

      All of this can drive you crazy. Of course, your mood will affect how you experience music, and not just music from your hi-fi—live concerts, too, are no less influenced by mood. Ditto food, art, sex, and pretty much anything else that can be experienced. As for my system right now, it's sounding awfully sweet, and I'm feeling good—or is it the other way around . . . ?

      This then gets us back to the core issue. If a subjective review for the most part is a derivative of a person's experience that is possibly even mostly from mood, stress at work, interpersonal relationships at the time, personal relationship with the company/representatives, what wine he just paired the listening session with, what he just smoked, how the color of the component matched his walls, how he loved the weight of those smooth turning knobs with just the right resistance... What then of "sound quality" which is I thought supposed to be at the heart of "high fidelity" audio!

      We could even question how "fair" would it be towards a company if the product has superb quality but was being reviewed by a person going through difficulties in life but still had to hand in their review by a certain deadline.

      I think you're right, there is only potential value in a subjective review to convey sound "accurately" if the reviewer is capable of a strong dose of self-insight. Maybe that's what we need most to concentrate on as the audience... Do we believe this "persona" projected to us, doing the subjective review, has strong awareness and understanding of what they're doing or saying?!

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    2. Hi-
      Obviously "mood" or emotional state affects reviews. I will say one thing for many of the subjective reviewers, though: they keep a product for a long time (often months), evaluating it and comparing it. So they probably hear it in many different states of mind.
      That would seem to lessen somewhat the effect of any specific mood on the results. It, of course, means nothing in terms of their general sighted subjectivity.

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    3. Would love to see a Darko or Guttenberg do a paid promo for some brand of gummies. "Folks, these 5mg THC + 2mg CBN puppies are The Ultimate Tweak! Unparalleled expansion of soundstage, resolution of fine details of microdynamics, a transformative emotional immersion in the performance. [Exercise caution when using a manual turntable. Void where prohibited by law.]

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  7. Hi Arch-
    Don't disagree with you in principle, but maybe I just wouldn't have been quite so critical of GS. Yes, there's a disconnect between his impressions and his measurements; so he should have been much more upfront about saying in the review that his negative impressions of the sound don't match the measurements. And that maybe, his impressions are due to bias.
    A solution might have been for him to do a blind test of the DAC vs another DAC, and see if he could pick out the dCS DAC consistently. If he couldn't, he'd know his impressions were due to sighted bias.
    On the other hand, we all know that subjective reviews are just that, and that all sorts of nonsense is said in them.

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    1. Absolutely Danny,
      Honestly I would not have been as critical if it wasn't for all this brouhaha flooding my audio feeds and people sending me E-mails about it 馃槓. Or other YouTube channels talking about it and apparently Linus Tech Tips namedropped, etc. All of which focused on David v. Goliath rather than the actual quality of the review itself!

      The drama of the whole situation is just laughable. Personally, if I said the things he said on the video and the company got upset, I would first look at whether I was fair in the review and if in retrospect in any way I felt that maybe I did a poor job with correlating my impressions with what the objective results told me, I would gladly pull the review as requested by dCS to be fair to them.

      Indeed, he has all kinds of other DACs available to run a blind test with. Perhaps before putting the review back up, let's borrow the unit from his friend again and add a segment on the blind test and tell us if 10/10 he was able to hear the "dull", "too smooth", "low energy" sound of the Bartok vs. HoloAudio May vs. Terminator, etc... That too is another kind of objectivism we need to foster in this hobby!

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  8. Greetings from chilly and crisp Canberra. I no doubt should not be raising my head into the rarified air of dCS equipment but I would like to draw your attention to the review of the Apex modification, which is lauded thus: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dcs-bartok-apex-streaming-dac/

    Surely the glowing words of the $9,000+ upgrade in that review mean that GS maybe did hear something not measurable in the orginal Bartok.

    An interesting week in hifi to be sure. And to stir the pot a little more: I wonder if the gentleman recently departed from dCS had daggers out for Cameron over the MQA issue.

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    1. Maybe that glowing review just means that in both cases expectation bias is at work. That's where the AS and it's reviewers live: the most high end expensive stuff always sounds the best

      Delete
    2. Interesting graham,
      Oi... Deciphering Neil Gader's review and descriptions of sound quality is like reading entrails to divine the future. Despite all the claims about larger soundstage, "airier", "wider dynamics", "more immersive", more "seamless", better "naturalism and harmonic detail"; many of those things I can only kind of imagine but the text leaving me wondering just the magnitude of difference we're really talking about.

      Notice that Gader seems to have kept his original Bartok from 2019 which means he has been using it for 4+ years? If it's as crappy and dull as GS claims, one would have thought a TAS reviewer would have long removed it from his system by now!?

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    3. One more thing. Regarding MQA. While GS' video brought the issues to the public in April 2021, that was pretty late to the game! MQA was well on its way down and out by that point. Sentiment was already in a bad mood around it.

      I hope dCS didn't pay too much money to MQA for the firmware update to their RingDAC devices. The firmware updates to most of their DACs were already introduced back in late 2017 so that was many years of decline already before GoldenSound came around.

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  9. Hi, Arch

    It seems to me the core of this story is an out of control DCS employe and a over-dramatic Generation Z reviewer - then a YouTube video and Internet forums just blew everything out of proportion, as usual.

    DCS has made the right move, IMO - after what was a disastrous PR move, but of course we will all wonder Cameron's future review bias... Brands should be aware the time of overly-positive reviews is over, and more negative reviews will surface for most brands - and they will have to deal with it. I've heard the Bartol and enjoyed it - I'm not someone who goes crazy for every 20k DAC but I'm also not someone who believes a 200 bucks Topping sounds as good as a DCS because of it's measurements, other factors contribute to a DAC's sound.

    As for the points you make, they're all great and they seem to be the problem with so many reviewers these days (objective or subjective) - when reviews are positive the product reviewed is MAGIC (or any other variation), when they're bad they're 20 minutes of OH TOO SMOOTH (or any other variation)... Or objectivists go crazy because Topping reached 123db of SINAD or furious because a product has a 0.05% extra of distortion. Most hi-fi products are simply not as good or as bad as reviewers point them out, and hifi customers should think more with their own ears and care less about what others think (probably a good life lesson also).

    I would say this last point is probably central and one of the main problems with hifi historically - people rely too much on what magazines or youtube reviewers say (and I do some hifi reviews). Go listen for yourself, and decide for yourself.

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    1. Well said jorge,
      While when it comes to DACs I generally take a much more objective stance around using the numbers to denote sound quality, I believe you are right. The time is over to be too focused on just the numbers - it doesn't matter if the SINAD is 95 or 125 when listening to complex music recorded well. Likewise, yup, the days of universal praise should not be expected - it should never have been expected!

      The Internet does tend to promote a kind of immaturity on the extremes, doesn't it? Emotional polarities tend to capture more views; check out the title icon on many of these YouTube product reviews and we see the reviewer's happy face or scowl or quizzical expression depending on what emotion they want to project. "Magical" or "Garbage" kinds of black & white sentiments everywhere in the media.

      I hope as "adults in the room", it's important to have meaningful discussions that don't end up villainizing one side (unfairly at least, sometimes there are truly bad actors where there's a need for strong words said). Indeed the "over-dramatic Generation Z reviewer" part I think seems like a fair characterization of what happened and the old boys at dCS might have gotten freaked out by it 馃槃.

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  10. I would like to add that measurements are just another side of the coin - of course it's important a product has good measurements, it shows that brand knows what they're doing and have solid engineering skills. But for a lot of people, it's again giving something external the power to decide for them, it's just you trade youtube or magazine reviews for measurements... It if measures good, they love it, if it doesn't, they hate it.. That's also not good critical thinking, IMO.

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    1. Sure jorge,
      At the end of the day we will enjoy or not enjoy based on our own subjective preferences... Indeed, measurements are a tool and it's often a moot point these days when almost universally, one can't really go wrong with even just "decent" DACs.

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  11. Arch, I agree with your comments re: disconnect between the subjective impression that is simply not in line with the measurements.

    Related to your point, I felt that this review on the DSC dac (not dcs) actually was an excellent write up that incorporates measurements to support the reviewer’s subjective impression of the sound character

    https://www.euphonicreview.com/blog/signalyst-dsc1-dsc2-dac-review

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    1. Nice Deric,
      Kudos to the author of that DSC DAC review. I like the reference and objective comparison with PSAudio DirectStream products as well. (We know that Paul McGowan often praises the work of his man Ted Smith around his DSD implementations even though there might be high noise level with some of the earlier models at least.)

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    2. Agreed. At least with a niche device like the dsc dac, the significant distortion especially on the sub bass <50hz and >18khz could potentially make the bass a bit “soft”, or treble a bit resemble to the soft clipping of vinyl…

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    3. Yeah for sure, little "anomalies" on the extremes would not be an issue at all!

      TD+N still below -90dB below something like 55Hz and only over 15kHZ would not be a problem at all! As you suggest, who knows, maybe these could even be "euphonic"!

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  12. Hiya Arch
    There are so many YouTube reviews of hi-fi equipment. Prior to product launches for the mass market these reviewers will often get a first look at these items and invariably most reviews are generally overly positive. This is almost certainly about getting sales via affiliated links and enhancing ones standing with the manufacturers. The honest audiophile whose only goal is to educate and assist the buyer in their search for good products is a rare breed. It is all about the money. Subsequently, it is not easy to rely on their appraisal of any equipment reviewed. Certain products are so hyped before launch that they achieve a mythical status. Then once the frenzy has died down and a new product comes along, then we might find more honest reviews of the once so lauded product. Audiophile forums are saturated with disappointed users who query why their purchase did not meet their inflated expectations.
    In the early 2000s Sony invented David Manning, a film critic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Manning_(fictitious_writer) David wrote very favorably about new film releases from Columbia pictures and was even interviewed on radio. His voice was provided by a computer voice synthesizer.
    So, the issue is all about trust. Our society is based on trust. It is the bedrock that keeps our society together. There are studies that suggest our brains are naturally prone to trusting others.
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-neurobiology-of-trust/
    But can we trust reviewers? As mentioned in this blog and in the comments section the subjective bias is enormously influential when evaluating hi-fi. There is even a monetary bias for some. Certain reviewers obtain exclusivity rights. How would that arrangement affect the review? Darko has that and Buchardt stopped collaborating with 13th Note because of pressure from other reviewers.
    https://www.avsforum.com/posts/62052157/
    I am not sure if Cameron has any monetary incentive when reviewing products. I’ve always appreciated his work because I perceived he had an honest approach to his reviews. He even purchased an expensive analyzer which furthered my belief that he wanted the scientific measurements to support his reviews. Unlike Beekhuzen who uses the analyzers as props in his videos.
    And finally, can we even trust ourselves when we test equipment? As mentioned in the blog and comments we are influenced by so many factors. Our mood, our environment, the time of day and so on. My enjoyment comes when I stop listening to the equipment and focus solely on the music. At a certain level of reproduction quality, we really don’t need to chase all the flowery language that is so prevalent in this industry.
    Take Care
    Michael

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    1. Nice one Michael,
      Great points and thanks for educating me on David Manning! Wow, that's some shameful business tactic from Sony. Thankfully I didn't see any of those movies "he" reviewed so I guess I can't claim the $5 back from Sony 馃. A great example though of using a reviewer's comments for dramatic quotes in ads!

      Likewise, interesting comments on exclusive rights and that post from Buchardt to 13th Note; Simon seems like a decent fellow. That's really disturbing though.

      Who knows any more... From my perspective, I think I've seen enough and heard enough that these days if I don't see evidence of good objective performance, I'm just not going to get too excited. I can still get excited when I see/hear amazing quality stuff (especially excellent immersive multichannel content and reproduction!) so I don't think I'm just jaded or cynical about the potential for amazing high quality. More like I hope I'm confident enough that I can be immune to flash-in-the-pan hype with the excitement of new products that mostly fizzle out. In time, hopefully most experienced audiophiles can also find their sense of peace and not need to chase every new product unless there's good reason instead of hanging on to the mere testimonies of others.

      It's good to have tools like the AP. As I would expect from any reviewer with the tools, we have to use them appropriately and appreciate what the results are telling us. If one doesn't trust that the AP results correlate with good sound quality, then I don't recommend using them! Why bother testing if we don't use the results? And if we do trust them, then make sure to be consistent in the messaging and explain the meaning to the audience.

      I'm afraid that one simply cannot be "ultra-subjective" as in the dCS review with all those perplexing negative comments yet at the same time claim any beneficial knowledge from the objective performance results.

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  13. Thank you for this! During this whole dCS debacle I watch the same review and I though it was just the only one observing this very weird disconnect between the measurement and his subjective babbling. I have seen some weird questionable stuff from him before, like during some other review when he talked lengthy about jitter being a problem even though measurements have shown for years that it's really not, but this dCS review still took the price of weird stuff from him.

    But I guess that the fact that he's working for headphones.com that sells audiophile stuff aimed for the subjective crowd I guess he has to do this babbling.
    All in all though makes me not really trust the guy, like with this recent DAC blindtest, still not sure what and how he actually did hear..

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    1. Hey there Tell,
      Yeah, I know of a few fellow audiophiles who had the same reaction to watching the review when this all blew up. I don't know anyone who's cool with dCS threatening a lawsuit, but there's some concern that the review was just not inherently believable nor consistent with the experience of others who have tried the Bart贸k DAC.

      Don't know about headphones.com; looks like they're one of many online head-fi stores eh? The 365-day return policy looks interesting though so that's cool.

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  14. Could I beg and plead with you to join me in refusing to misuse the term "subjective" to mean "uncontrolled?" Something can be subjective and absolutely valid and rigorous (e.g., subjective reactions made with basic ears-only controls) or subjective and absolutely invalid (e.g., subjective reactions made with peeking, preconceptions, and non-auditory inputs).

    Subjective =/= uncontrolled. So much fuzzy thinking has arisen because of that conflation of terms.

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    1. Hey there SY,
      Nice comment. Let me put up a separate post to examine this and define things more - at least from my perspective!

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  15. Hi there, Archimago.
    Most of my thoughts have already been said elsewhere in the thread. GoldenSound may be a bit confusing in his reviews (which is dangerous for those who can't learn to tune out subjective descriptions with no data), but I think he's still better than a lot of other reviewers in the niche of expensive "boutique" equipment from manufacturers who often don't post measurements.

    I believe you that audio equipment, particularly DACs, are a solved problem. If you have the graphs demonstrating transparency and you know how they were produced, you don't need a subjective review or even a piece of music to play. You can buy the product and know the product will sound good. The "review" can be reduced to a slide presentation.

    However, subjective reviews are educational in that they teach the reader about the vocabulary of critical listening and often serve as a recommendation list for new music. The latter is especially important when streaming services try to narrow down each user's music tastes to just a handful of algorithmically optimal songs. GoldenSound uses that as a foundation and adds some graphs on top (which he rarely discusses in any detail), along with some comments about build quality and user experience. The result is a review that pressures manufacturers of expensive products to improve their measurements and manufacturing processes while offering music recommendations to his viewers regardless of whether or not they can afford the product.

    I don't see a problem with that. I agree that the presentation of the objective data could be more in-depth and that there could be more disclaimers when subjective impressions don't match said data, but that doesn't make the video format bad, especially when most reviewers don't do any measurements at all.

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