Obviously, value is an important consideration for consumers when it comes to buying and enjoying products. As discussed over the years, I'm not an audiophile who's particularly interested in the luxury aspect of these machines. To me, the ideal of achieving "high fidelity" sound does not care about MSRP or some other determinant of whether a product is artificially exotic/elite, thus "High End Audio" (a.k.a. High Priced Audio) is meaningless to me unless there is evidence of improved sonic performance (whether from plain increased objective fidelity or incorporating technical features) correlating with higher asking price. As such, I believe audiophiles should seriously think about the value of modern AV receivers which over time have also incrementally shown improved sound quality by incorporating higher quality DACs, newer DSP room correction technologies, and potential benefits like balanced connections.
In my opinion, this also means the divide between "home theater" enthusiasts and "audiophiles" is largely artificial when it comes to sonic performance. Subjectively, we're all aiming for an excellent audio experience with high-fidelity to the source with utmost clarity (including time-domain coherence), low distortion, high dynamic range, excellent reproduction of nuances, while achieving realistic/intended soundstage. Objectively, a high quality AV receiver these days should not have difficulty providing hi-fi performance compared to many very expensive products (like the Dan D'Agostino Momentum monoblocks US$80k/pr as an obvious example - other than high power, there's nothing particularly good), plus typically these AV companies provide way more features and modern amenities. The R&D firepower behind these companies are substantial compared to the small-business shops that typically make products for the esoteric 2-channel audiophile niche. Over time, as I hope audiophiles increasingly consider enjoying the new multichannel recordings and remixes, moving into "immersive" audio, these multichannel receivers should be seen as serious options.
The only utilitarian difference between home theater enthusiasts and audiophiles is whether video playback is needed.
In this post, let's start with having a look at the item pictured above, the Integra DRX-8.4 multichannel receiver. (Discussions and measurements of AV receivers are not new on this blog with previous posts on the Yamaha RX-V781 and Onkyo TX-NR1009.)
Despite being the current flagship receiver from Integra, the price is "only" US$3,200 or about CAD$4,000. I bought this item through standard retail channels online because I was interested in it; no company incentives.
You might not be familiar with the Integra brand name since these units are less easily accessible to end-users because this division of Onkyo caters to the home theater integrator market - folks who are more likely to be attending CEDIA Expo than Munich/Vienna High End.
[In the world of AV audio products, many of the brands are under the same holding company: D&M Holdings owns Denon, Marantz, Polk whereas Voxx International is the major holder along with Sharp Corporation under the name Premium Audio Company (PAC) with Klipsh, Onkyo, Integra, Pioneer, Jamo, Energy among its stable of companies.]
The receiver came well-packed, double-boxed, with accessories in that white Integra upper package when you open it up. Inside are the usual contents with some pamphlets, warranty info (3 years parts & labor new), Dirac Live Bass Control leaflet, AM and FM antennae (might not use since integrated TuneIn internet radio works well), thick 14AWG power cable, room calibration mic (in pink bag), and the remote control which is of reasonable quality, plastic, backlit keys, with Panasonic batteries included (it's a good sign when recognizable brand name batteries are included, right?!).
While most of the rear connections should be familiar to anyone who has used a more powerful AV receiver over the years, notice the inclusion of XLR balanced audio ports. Assuming the device is able to achieve good low-noise performance (which we'll measure later), this is a nice feature for 2-channel audiophiles who have high resolution DACs with balanced out. In practice, balanced cabling is most useful if you're placing your DAC, amps and subs further away requiring longer interconnects to reduce interference.
Pre-out RCA impedance is specified as 470ฮฉ and XLR output impedance 220ฮฉ.
Currently there are not many reasonably-priced receivers around this price point with XLR capability. For example, the Yamaha RX-A6A (US$2150, 9.2Ch), Yamaha RX-A8A (US$2900, 11.2Ch) and Pioneer Elite VSX LX805 (US$2000, 11.4Ch) support 2-channel XLR in and front stereo balanced pre-outs. I like that the Integra has center channel pre-out also which IMO is just as important as the front stereo pair when doing multichannel (with vocals anchored to the center) and for the subs. Beyond this, I think we're looking at much more expensive separate multichannel processors like the monster Marantz AV 10 15.4 channel (US$7k, plus you'll need to buy something like the matching 16-channel AMP 10 also US$7k based on Class D ICEedge modules), then there are the StormAudio and Trinnov products typically well beyond US$10k.
Since the Integra caters to the custom installation market, it does have a few extra features one might not see in other AV receivers. All settings can be accessed through the front display and controls along with full-featured web-based set-up page as well. Little things like the rear panel as shown above uses black text on white background scheme to improve contrast when installing in dark, cramped spaces. It also is compatible with remote monitoring platforms like OvrC Pro, Domotz, Luxul ProWatch - I have no idea what this stuff is ๐. We've also got Alexa, Google and Josh.ai smart home assistant compatibility. Then there are all the remote control systems like Control4, Crestron, URC Automation, ELAN, and RTI this can be paired with.
The convenient web interface also has a "toolkit" to run various HDMI diagnostics. The quad-core "network processor" feels responsive. To access the web interface, enter the receiver's IP address on your browser, login and password defaults are "ciuser":
There's also the Integra Control Pro Android/iOS app to adjust some of the more essential features and to run Dirac Live:
A look under the chassis from Polish review. |
Current firmware R112-0304-1120-0131. |
What the TV output looks like when playing Roon to Integra. Sadly no multichannel Roon streaming at this time. ๐คจ |
AV receivers have been incorporating digital room correction for years. This Integra has both Onkyo/Integra's AccuEQ Room Calibration as well as Dirac Live Full Bandwidth. Of the two, Dirac Live would be the significantly more powerful, preferred option. For an extra $299, you can purchase the license for Dirac Bass Control which is intended to improve bass response within the room, optimize time-domain performance, and manage multiple subwoofers - "co-optimises subwoofers and speakers" according to Dirac. Based on Internet chatter, Dirac Live Active Room Treatment (ART) may be coming to this device in 2025.
For those not familiar with the Dirac Live room correction technology, have a look at this walk-through from Mitch Barnett for Dirac Live 2 in 2020 and this review of Dirac Live 3 by Kal Rubinson in 2021. Here's an excellent Dirac Live Guide. Maybe I'll run some tests with this machine down the road...
Needless to say, from all the logos we see on the front of the box, this multichannel receiver accepts and can decode all kinds of audio data from Dolby Atmos, to DTS, to Auro-3D with various certifications and techniques added like THX Adaptive Decorrelation, Re-EQ, Timbre Matching, or IMAX Enhanced listening modes. All of this stuff of course deviates from basic measurements like THD+N/SINAD, dynamic range, flat frequency response, etc. It's much more difficult to meaningfully measure modern receivers because of all these features that act not on "raw fidelity" to the source data, but leverages room characteristics and psychoacoustic preferences which cannot be simply quantified. Given that we will almost always listen with some kind of DSP in play (almost always at minimum some kind of bass management); there comes a point where basic measurements like low noise, low distortions, flat frequency response are no longer that important beyond a certain "good enough".
I would also be remiss to not spend a little bit of time on the thorough complement of video technologies supported for movie playback through HDMI 2.1 up to 40Gbps speed. Here's the summary table:
We see some game mode features in the mix including VRR (Variable Refresh Rate) and low-latency Quick Frame Transport (QFT). Display Stream Compression (DSC) refers to the lossy ("visually lossless") video compression. We've got ARC/eARC. And the HDR standards like HDR10, HDR10+, HLG, and accepts Dolby Vision metadata - ultimately it's up to the TV screen if it's capable of showing the high dynamic range image. (While I don't talk about video too much, we did dip into features and acronyms back in 2016 on the blog.)
The receiver's Bluetooth 4.2 codec supports SBC and AAC reception. The receiver can transmit SBC, aptX and aptX HD. It would have been nice to have support for AAC transmission especially with Apple wireless headphones and maybe LDAC for higher quality as well (see this for objective comparisons). In practice, I doubt I'll be using the Bluetooth feature on a device like this given the ubiquity of Bluetooth on mobile devices, so it's mainly a convenience thing rather than high fidelity playback. Also, there is a front 1/4" headphone jack for those who might want to use it, again, more of a convenience/utility thing rated at only 75mW into 32ฮฉ with 10% THD.
--------------------
A few Internal DAC & Pre-Out Measurements...
Since it's always nice to have some objective reference for performance, let's have a peek at the XLR front right and left pre-outs in "Direct" mode which turns off DSP manipulations. Here are some THD(+N) vs. Level sweeps for a 1kHz signal using TosLink input (24/96), pre-amp volume set at "Reference" which correlates to 4Vrms output at 0dBFS (depending on whether you set the volume control to reflect absolute or relative range, reference is either 82.0 or 0 on the display; I personally prefer the "Relative" setting):
The internal DACs are dual ESS ES9026PRO (8-channel devices each). As you can see, the best performance is around -100dB THD+N at 2Vrms which I suspect is a reflection of the XLR output being derived from an internal unbalanced signal (not true differential balanced, neither are more expensive AV processors like the Marantz AV 10). Better than -90dB THD+N (less than 0.003% distortion) is already beyond the needs for human ears and not worth worrying about (ie. rational audiophiles don't get obsessed whether their DAC achieves 90 or 100 SINAD ๐).
While I'm only measuring up to 4Vrms in the graphs above, rest assured that the pre-amp can go much higher to 11Vrms XLR and 5.5Vrms RCA out to drive low-gain amps.
The internal DAC+pre-amp linearity is excellent:
Less than 0.5dB deviation to well below -100dBFS.
In the frequency domain, here's the sweep using TosLink input at 24/96, at -6dBFS level:
Very flat from 10Hz infrasonic to >40kHz ultrasonic. <0.1dB interchannel difference. |
Harmonic distortion is basically all relatively innocuous 2nd and 3rd products. Notice the 3rd harmonic creeps up at higher frequencies.
Suppose we use a higher resolution DAC like the Sabaj A20d 2022 with its ES9038PRO and feed that into the XLR-in. Is the receiver's pre-amp able to deliver that higher resolution signal to the XLR pre-outs in "Direct" mode beyond the fidelity of the internal ES9026PRO DAC as shown above?
Yup, it's better than the internal DAC fed with TosLink data. Looks like the receiver is able to pass along a quieter signal through to the XLR pre-out by about -6dB. Here's a look at the 1kHz 0dBFS (4Vrms out) FFT from the Sabaj A20d 2022 passed through "Direct":
We know the Sabaj A20d is capable of -120dB THD+N from previous measurements directly from its XLR out. This shows that the receiver with its pre-amp in the chain will raise the THD+N to around -105 to -106dB THD+N which is still an improvement over the internal DAC via TosLink. As one would expect, putting any pre-amp in front of a very hi-res DAC would worsen the THD+N/SINAD. Notice a small amount of 60Hz hum down at -130dB. Most of the harmonic distortion is the 3rd. Excellent right-left channel level balance of only 0.02dB difference here.
Here's the same test with the RCA pre-out (2Vrms), notice that the left cable is only 1', the right 12' done on purpose:
The THD+N is similar to the XLR above but notice a few more noise spikes with RCA and the sensitivity to the length of the cable with the longer RCA picking up more 60Hz hum. So, while resolution is similar between XLR and RCA pre-out, if you're running longer cabling, the XLR is more resilient to distortions.
--------------------
As usual, let's be wise about how much resolution we actually "need" as human listeners in the context of blind test results like these recently and the harmonic distortion blind test a few years back.
From what I've seen, digital processing in the Integra is done at 48kHz when bass management, Dolby Upmixer, DTS:X/Neural X, Auro-3D, and Dirac are engaged. While I'd love to see 96kHz as base fs for all DSP across the board, sticking to 48kHz is understandable especially since all Dolby Atmos encoded material is currently limited to 48kHz sample rate and we've got so many channels internally (lots of DSP being done already). While audibility of high sample rates remains one of those Hi-Res Audio subjective mysteries, there is no question that multichannel audio, surround upmixing, bass management, room correction DSP are all very audible and very beneficial when employed appropriately. [Having that "Post-Hi-Res-Audio" mindset discussed previously I think is important these days.]
Subjectively, after listening for 3 nights just as a 2-channel amp "Direct" streaming using Roon to my Paradigm Signature S8v.3 floor-standers, I think it sounds great. There's a nice subjective "body" to the notes, natural tonality, wide soundstage with great "surround" effect in some of the modern pop songs, no problem with tight phantom center image and spatial depth. 150Wpc into 8ฮฉ is more than enough power for my needs and the background noise level is very quiet without any hum or buzzing from the speakers. Bass already quite deep.
Last night, I got the surround speakers and subs all hooked up, and Dirac Live calibrated:
The measurement procedure and implementation of Dirac Live on the Android app went without a hitch. I'll fire up the Windows version of Dirac Live later to fine-tune. The sound improved substantially when playing these immersive mixes over the quality of my previous Yamaha RX-V781 set-up. Until I cut holes in my sound room ceiling, I've been using rear x.x.2 height channels, it's nice that this receiver allows me to set it as such without extra fiddling as I had done previously. Very nice integration, I've got many multichannel/Atmos albums I need to listen to again. ๐
At this point, the main thing I would love to see is multichannel Roon Ready streaming ability (7.1, up to 24/96 would be great and at <19Mbps, well within 100Mbps ethernet bandwidth). Maybe a firmware update, Integra/Roon, would be awesome? IMO, these days, all Roon Ready multichannel receivers should support multichannel streaming otherwise it really seems like a half-hearted effort especially for higher model "flagship" devices.
[Folks who care should send off a message to Integra here as I have already done - maybe "Integra's software team in Osaka, Japan" might want to take a look. While also getting Dirac Live ART running for next year? ๐ค]
With that, it's time to listen! Tons of things to try out here that's much more important than simply measurements of raw "fidelity"; time to have fun with the music and movies. Maybe measurements of the Class AB amplifier output down the road if I feel like it. ๐
To end, I just wanted to mention that for David Bowie fans, the new Blu-Ray release of The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars (1972, DR12 multichannel) with Dolby Atmos mix is revelatory! The vocal clarity, spacing of the instruments around the listener, and timbre of each part sounded much improved compared to previous multichannel efforts and when compared to the original 2-channel stereo. Multiple "hearing things I haven't heard before" inner dialogues arose while listening to this album.
Here's a nice interview with Ken Scott the original album producer with Bowie and Atmos mix engineer Emre Ramazanoglu:
Amazing that we're in November already with the year-end Holiday Season coming soon!
Only recently, I bought an AV receiver amp and a 5.1 setup. I have the Sony STR-DH790 AV receiver, four KEF LS50s for my front and rear speakers, a KEF Q650 center speaker, and a BK Electronics P12-300SB-FF subwoofer. I also have sound-absorbing panels on every wall. I'm very happy with my setup.
ReplyDeleteI think multi-channel mixes should have become the default standard in the early 2000s. Stereo mixes should have been left in the past long ago. I believe that with virtual surround sound for headphones, multi-channel mixes are better than stereo mixes. I've been trying to get heavy metal record labels to introduce better quality control systems for music production, and I've learned that labels have no input in how albums are recorded and mixed. It's up to the musicians, which to me clearly clearly explains why heavy metal albums are often poorly mixed. I'm hoping that immersive multi-channel mixes become popular because I think there's a chance that musicians will consider the album's sound and take more care with recording and mixing.
I've been debating with myself about buying ceiling speakers. Can you give your opinion? My receiver has 7.1 channels. There are many things putting me off at the moment. I think upscaled 4K discs are a scam. I don't like the fact that Dolby Atmos is mostly exclusive to 4K discs, and I don't want to encourage this by buying 4K discs.
I'm also wondering if only two ceiling speakers are enough to take advantage of Dolby Atmos.
Hey there Dan,
DeleteNice set-up with the KEFs integrated with the 12" sub. Need to get the lows especially with that metal genre ;-).
Yeah, it would have been wonderful if multichannel mixes became the standard since the early 2000's with the introduction of discrete multichannel (DD and DTS since the 1990's) and then SACD and DVD-A. Many of the early multichannels still sound great today and I'm glad to have for example the DTS mix of Eagles' Hell Freezes Over these days converted to 5.1 FLAC on my Roon server.
Simply great to see the continued release of new material on Atmos as well as re-mixes of favourites from back in the day like Ziggy Stardust. Plus live albums sound great as multichannel - I was listening to the new Tears For Fears Songs For A Nervous Planet earlier today.
Yeah, unfortunately like all those upsampled albums sold as "hi-res", there are many examples of upsampled 4K Ultra HD Blurays as well. Even if resolution hasn't been upgraded, you might find benefit in movies if they upgraded the color range and HDR.
As for Atmos, I would say that even 2 height channels will add a noticeable extra top-level dimension though obviously not as good as 4 heights to convey front and rear gradient, not just side-to-side. I've just run 2 heights for years and have been impressed by the sound of planes, helicopters, bullets flying overhead.
At some point I'll look at cutting 4 holes in the ceiling... ๐
Enjoy!
Hi amigo, thanks for responding. I am able to put 4 ceiling speakers in my ceiling, but at the moment, I don't have the money. I need to buy a 4K player and the films, as well as the 4 ceiling speakers.
DeleteIt's a future plan for me; is it the joy or curse of being an audiophile? I've seen a number of HDR films, and to me, it's an obvious improvement.
Anyone reading this comment who has ceiling speakers— is it worth the investment?
That's wise Dan to make sure you have the 4K player and movies first; enjoy the content with what you have.
DeleteFor me the big jump was always the surround multichannel speakers and whether at home with just 2 heights or at showrooms/friends' places with 4 heights, the effect is certainly worthwhile, but not as major as going from 2.x to 5.x / 7.x.
My sense has been that movies benefit more from the heights than music simply because visually having overhead content "gels" more. At concerts and normal music venues, we're more used to a flat presentation where the orchestra or singer is on stage so mostly it's effects that get translated to be up top (stuff like the ethereal swell that arises around 1:10, 1:38, 2:49 on Elton John's "Rocket Man" for example that fills up the perceived space).
Yeah would love to hear opinions about 2 vs. 4 channels heights and the difference that made to others.
"there are many examples of upsampled 4K Ultra HD Blurays as well"
DeleteSince it's easy to spot fake 'HiRes' albums simply by running the signal through an FFT I used to think it should be possible to do the same for video (performing the FFT in the spatial rather than time domain). Unfortunately, running a movie frame through a spatial FFT just results in a screen of mush that's very hard to interperet.
But lately I see there's work being done on detecting upsampled fakes using neural networks. One recent prize-winning example from a couple of Chinese researchers can be found here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/383700674_Assessing_UHD_Image_Quality_from_Aesthetics_Distortions_and_Saliency
Although it's not been peer-reviewed yet, you can grab the full article as well as the code used to try it out for yourself.
Hi Mr. King,
DeleteI use the website Blu-ray.com; they normally mention which films are native 4K or upscaled.
An overly simplistic way to know if it's upscaled is by the date of the recordings. Films from, say, the early 2000s to 2017 were probably filmed with digital 1080p cameras, and anything before the 2000s was likely filmed on analogue cameras.
Great to see there's work out there Charles to help identify these upsampled movies! Hopefully the more technical movie reviewers will use tools such as these as part of the reporting.
DeleteGood points Dan. And that's how I've been thinking about it as well. Unless a film is known to be captured with something hi-res like 70mm rather than typical 35mm (for example Dunkirk), then sure, the 4K version might be worth it resolution-wise. Most recent movies need to be digitally filmed with 4+K cameras; we can look at IMDB.com and examine the technical page listed for the flick.
Of course, there's still stuff like dynamic range and color grading which could be post-processed and might still be worth a purchase (discussed before including warning about "format folly" back in late 2017) even if the resolution isn't quite pristine 4K.
BTW: Since Christopher Nolan's claims about the importance of film vs. digital (for him the importance of 70mm as discussed in the link above), I haven't heard much more debate in this area... Maybe there is and I've missed it. I respect that Nolan has stayed true to his stance though and both recent films Tenet and Oppenheimer were filmed with IMAX MKIII or Arriflex 765 analog large format film cameras to a significant extent.
Hi Arch,
ReplyDeleteWelcome to Youtube (although I ran out of patience and just read this instead, as everything seems to be here.) It's good to see more of the objective side represented there, so I did subscribe.
This unit looks like a bargain, and really good performance for an AVR, running close to the same cost as my MiniDSP FlexHTx and the phalanx of Hypex boxes that I'm running now. Plus you have a lot of features that my pile of boxes doesn't. (To me, the lack of a real-time lipsync adjust is the most valuable.) If Integra would rip out the amps and offer it as an AVP, I might consider another upgrade. The only reasonable priced AVP with XLR that I'm aware of is the Tone Winner, but after being burned with the Outlaw 976, I decided not to buy that until I saw actual performance measurements.
Yes, Tuesday.... no popcorn for me, just a fresh Black Bush, whether celebratory or commiseratory we shall see.
Keep up the stellar work,
Phil
Hey there Phil,
Delete"Phalanx" of Hypex boxes, nice imagery man!
Yeah, the YouTube foray is for fun. Will probably be reasonably selective as to what I'll post a video on and what I won't. Playing around with this, it's all pretty easy to do but I really have little interest to make it fancy unless I was serious with running a "channel" expecting to be financially rewarded.
Thanks for the note about the Tonewinner - I see they have the AT-300.
At around US$1400 online, I'd certainly like to see more measurements to make sure the system is decently noise-free and free from 50/60Hz hum. Multichannel AV systems demand good bass management so I hope this is up to the task with variable crossovers. And also, I might be wrong, but I don't see any modern room-correction system based on the manual here. Looks like there's some basic levels, distance, parametric EQ shown in this video:
https://youtu.be/DrNlhasB4zA?si=6i-Qhdeyny7i_qmR
Perhaps good enough for the asking price.
BTW, yes that Black Bush sounds good regardless. ๐
DeleteAs a Canadian and while I can't vote, like many around the world, the bets are down. Indeed - "whether celebratory or commiseratory we shall see". ๐ฅณ ๐ซฃ ๐ฑ ๐ญ
Hey Archimago,
ReplyDeleteCongratulations on your new receiver! It seems to contain a lot of useful stuff while still not being ridiculously expensive. I like the fact that it has all those custom installation features. They might not be very useful on their own, but they do indicate a product that is thoroughly professional and tested. In the end, good specifications and measurements won't be useful if basic features are not working reliably.
I'm also thinking about upgrading my home theater, but it does seem expensive and 8K is hardly "necessary" at the moment...
Hey there Freddie,
DeleteYeah, I do like the installation-catered features. Indeed, I think there is something to be said about what the "pros" want (and need) to satisfy their customers.
Perhaps something to be said also about the importance of reliability with these pro-installation products. I would imagine the installation companies would be very unhappy with poor reliability if customers kept complaining!
8K is a good perk for modern HDMI devices. But I certainly would not spend significant money just on that!
Thanks for another practical review. I was looking forward to this since you hinted at it a few weeks back in your Canare thread. I too have been an Integra and now Onkyo user for a decade now. I only have space for a 5.2 setup, and purchased a 7.2 receiver so that I can bi-amp my two front speakers.
ReplyDeleteFor many years I enjoyed my Mirage OM-7 omni-polar speakers, but recently moved to the Revel 226Be to complement my previously purchased Revel center and surrounds, and 2 SVS SB 1000 subs. I rarely listen in Direct mode because the subs don't get enabled, and I enjoy the low end extension even with many classical pieces I listen to (i.e. Holt's The Planets by Dutoit).
As mentioned in the Canare thread, at this point there is little to gain with equipment upgrades, as the room is the limiting factor. If I were to have a dedicated listening room, I would then consider something like the Anthem line although they don't have XLR support in their receivers, only their AV processors.
Sounds great chron,
DeleteYes, this was what I was referring to earlier about having a look at a receiver. I really enjoyed the Onkyo machines in the past (loved the sound of the Onkyo TX-NR1009) before I got the Yamaha over the last few years, so to get the Integra this time is a pretty natural upgrade I think.
Anthems are well made for sure. Looking at their line of products, the MRX 1140 8K looks like it has a similar set of features (no XLR).
One of the biggest differences I think is which room correction DSP system they use. Anthem's ARC Genesis vs. Dirac Live.
i think the Anthems look great though! :-)
I'm always on the lookout for a reasonably priced AVR or HT pre-processor to replace my problematic NAD T758v3. I have a 5.4.1 setup and use both Roon and Dirac. I am also an enthusiastic convert to multi-channel music when available, so the 2-channel limitation here would be a showstopper for me. BUT: I can't play multichannel on my NAD either when routed over the I/P network. However, I can play multichannel by connecting my Roon ROCK to the AVR via HDMI. Did you try that here?
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, Roon seems unwilling to even discuss their inability to play Atmos music, which will probably become a serious issue for me as more music gets released that way.
Hey there bluememe,
DeleteNice comment. Sounds like you have an awesome system already, but always good to keep an eye out for the new stuff to see if there's anything we might "need"!
No problem with using my Windows MiniPC with HDMI out → Integra for 7.1 Roon multichannel playback similar to what you're doing with the Roon ROCK. It's just a disappointment that the built-in "Roon Ready" feature on the AVR doesn't already handle multichannel. ๐คจ
Thinking about Roon, now that they have mobile streaming ARC working much better (at least for me using Android Auto wireless in the car), they really need to look beyond at what is next. Clearly for hardware support, still tons of work that can be done with supporting multichannel firstly and also looking at what they can do with Atmos support.
I assume there's some work to be done within the RAAT protocol if they want to support bit-streaming for Dolby Atmos and DTS:X. Roon has always told us that RAAT will "support all relevant audio formats today and for the foreseeable future". Let's see whether they have the ability (and the will) to actually push forward given the rapidly growing library of multichannel/Atmos content out there!
Personally, not only does Roon need to expand multichannel support with existing devices like this, I think Roon needs to start bit-streaming EAC3-JOC and TrueHD-Atmos content as a start since it's unlikely they'll want to take on the decoding of the data (Dolby might not even license to a 3rd party like Roon)!
I agree that there’s a lack of support for multi-channel streaming. Originally, I planned to purchase a high-end Denon AV receiver with wireless Internet capability, with the intention of streaming multi-channel films and music. I was surprised to learn, however, that I couldn't use Denon’s advertised wireless AV receiver for wireless playback.
DeleteI emailed Denon to ask why and to understand the purpose of a "multi-channel wireless AV receiver" that doesn't actually support wireless playback. Their response was disappointing and rather vague, essentially saying, “Sorry for your disappointment, but that’s just how it is.”
I've briefly looked into Roon, but I don’t understand what it’s for.
Hey there Dan,
DeleteRegarding Roon, it's for audiophiles who want:
1. Automated population of metadata for their private album collection and/or access to Tidal/Qobuz (mainly) with the metadata.
2. Unified hardware end-point playback among multiple devices at home.
3. Relatively broad compatibility with multiple formats in the library from lossy to lossless PCM to DSD streamed to supported end-points (including transparent transcoding of DSD-to-PCM for endpoints without native DSD capability). It currently has capability for some multichannel like 5.1 and 7.1 "base" (eg. multichannel FLAC and AAC) but unable to decode directly nor bitstream newer formats like Atmos for receivers/processors to decode.
4. Integrated DSP through their "MUSE" suite of capabilities including level normalization, dynamic overhead, EQ, convolution for room correction, etc. The lack of an open "plug-in" API however prevents 3rd party development of additional capabilities.
5. Capability to access one's library over the Roon ARC app on mobile platforms.
Obviously many software packages can do some or most (all?) of the above although I don't think any one system is nearly as flexible as Roon at this point, hence I think it's fair that audiophiles looking for the best system should support Roon. This is also why Roon is charging so much, including a "rental" type service model.
This also means IMO that for it to keep its leadership position means expanding into areas that audiophiles might be interested in and in particular growing into areas like multichannel. Otherwise we're just looking at stagnation at this point... Since the introduction of ARC in 2022, I don't think there has been any substantial new feature added.
Thanks for another interesing review! Please add two measurements: THD+N at full output level (you mentioned 11V aka +23 dBu - do the values get 9 dB better then?), and THD+N in the normal path with all effects more or less deactivated (EQ linear etc). This path is the one used 99% of the time, and so far always failed in tests, due to limitations of the used processing chips.
ReplyDeleteHey there Techland,
DeleteThanks for the note. Nice hearing from you.
I agree, 99% of the time we'd be using the DSP for stuff like bass management even though certain features like EQ might not be activated. I have tried this and the THD+N of a 0dBFS signal would drop to something like -96dB when running 2.1 "Stereo" mode, with noise level rising a bit more to around -90dB when doing the Dolby Surround Upmixer.
Of course even a THD+N -90dB is 0.003%, nothing audible. In comparison, the effect of stereo 2.0 music into DSU with a bit of "center spread", driven with good subs, more often than not sounds fantastic and well worth the change in THD+N to my ears and brain. Which is why at some point, the numbers can only tell us so much about the actual sound quality - the Subjectivist side of me coming out ๐.
I haven't run the pre-amp pushing out beyond 4V but I don't believe there would be an improvement, will check next time I have this beast on the testbench; currently enjoying tweaking the sound with Dirac Live. ๐ค And just enjoying the music...